MINUTES

WATERTOWN TOWN COUNCIL
SPECIAL MEETING
SWIFT MIDDLE SCHOOL
MONDAY, MARCH 25, 2002, 7:00 P.M.

PRESENT:        Elaine Adams
        Lee Archer, Chairman
        Raymond Hebert, Jr., Vice Chairman
        Robert Kane
        Jean King
        Raymond Primini
        Paul Rinaldi
        Paul Valenti
        Richard Wick

ABSENT:         None

OTHERS PRESENT: Charles Frigon, Interim Town Manager
                      Elisabeth Moore, Trust for Public Land

1.      Convene Special Meeting

Mr. Archer, Chairman Called the Meeting to Order at 7:10 p.m.

2.      Roll Call

Ms. LaForme, Clerk, Executed the Roll Call.

3.      Presentation Regarding Possible Recreation Field Locations in Watertown/Oakville

        Mr. Archer:  Just for starters I want to welcome everyone and thank you for coming out.  I see a lot of faces in the crowd who were here for the Public Hearing we had on January7th. It was good to see a lot of those people out here again who are following this project and care enough about the Town to come out for things like this.  We appreciate that.
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Special Meeting
March 25, 2002
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        The purpose here, this is sort of a Step II in assessing Watertown/Oakvilles recreational space needs and hopefully addressing some of the things that a lot of you spoke about in January when you came out to the first Public Hearing.  This is in direct response to the January 7th Public Hearing.  60-80 of you came out to voice your concerns on what was a very cold, snowy night.  I imagine if it hadnt been snowing and icing, there might have been 100, 110 of you.  We just wanted to let you know that we did hear you; that what you said did resonate with us, and we hear your concerns.

        We heard three things primarily:

        1.     We need more ball fields.  I think thats pretty clear.  I dont know anyone who would dispute that.
        2.     We need more open park space for kids and families.  Simple getting out in the sun, running around, going to the playground, things of that sort.
        3.     We need to restore and maintain the existing fields that we have.  A lot of you talked about the deplorable conditions of the fields.

        In fact, I wanted to sort of recount some of the things that you said that made such an impact:

§       Teams from other Towns arrive for a game and are disgusted and refuse to play here.  The condition of our fields is embarrassing  Baseball Coach
§       The demand for fields has skyrocketed as the Town has steadily grown and more people, kids, and adults are involved in athletics, but the amount of open space has stayed the same.  Weve fallen far behind neighboring towns  Watertown Native

(Certainly were at just under 6% growth per decade in this Town and thats having a tremendous effect on the availability of fields.

§       We have far too few fields for all the Towns teams.  The fields we do have are over-used and abused and often unsafe because theyre never given a rest.  Ive stopped to pick up rocks off the field during half time because the surface was truly a hazard
§       Our team could not play one home game last year, not one, because there was simply no field space available.  We literally are practicing in parking lots  Lacrosse Team
§       Two years ago I had to cancel two teams because we lost the use of several fields.  I dont ever want to have to do that again.  Every year more and more kids want to play and I dont know how were going to accommodate them  Little League Coach
§       We should have bought the scenic properties in Town when they were for sale, because now all of that potential parkland is developed.  We cannot afford to lose any more of our remaining open space 

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Special Meeting
March 25, 2002
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        So now what?  We heard you and we want to propose a solution to all these concerns that were raised.  Just one caveat to all of this  we obviously cannot solve all of the problems with one wave of the wand.  The maintenance of the fields, I was told I should clarify this because a lot of people dont understand the difference in who maintains the various fields in Town.  There are fields that are controlled by the Town, and there are fields that are controlled by the School Board.  For example, the fields behind this building are controlled by the School Board.  The fields that are controlled by the Town, for example, is Veterans Park.  I believe it was noted at the Public Hearing that theres a pretty big difference in the condition of VeteransPark versus the Board of Ed fields.

        Why does that matter?  I see people shrugging.  It matters because Im not going to say the way its set up currently is correct; its not.  For anyone it would seem sort of illogical that theres two different groups taking care of fields, and I would have to agree with that.  The last Council that was seated in Town had wanted to address that problem, and to consolidate those two groups, which to anyone would make logical sense.  They sort of stuck a toe in the water of that pool and for various reasons, nothing came of that.  That is something were going to be looking at again.  Because were dealing with two different labor unions  theres a labor union that is the School Maintenance people and thats a different labor union, but its the Parks People that take care of the fields on the Towns side.  So any time you involve two different labor unions, obviously theres going to be afairly lengthy segway from doing it one way to do it another ay, and thats something that were going to be looking into in the months to come.  In the meantime, thats our approach to solving the maintenance issue; its not going to be fixed immediately.  Its something that we are working on.

        As far as the amount of fields, obviously if youre going to have more fields you have to put them somewhere.  We dont have a big tract of Town owned land right now and thats what were proposing this evening.  Were proposing that we would acquire a 200 acre park site.  I do have to clarify, its not quite 200 acres, I think its 195.  It is bordered by Middlebury Road on the North side, you can see up the top right this is Middlebury Road here.  This is Bunker Hill Road here, right in this corner, this would be across from the Davis Street Extension, and way over here is the end of New Wood Road, over by Rinaldis Restaurant.  This would connect to the intersection across from the Stop & Shop entrance.  Some of you may remember the Town discussed buying a site in this area about a year and a half ago.  At that time it was 134 acres.  It was pretty much everything below the cursorhere on the map.  And there were a lot of issues with buying the property that came up.  One of the things that were discussed was there was some contamination on the property, which Ill address in a couple of minutes.  It was considered kind of rocky; there were parts of it that were inaccessible because of the topography.  There was a fairly large plateau section on it that there would have been no access to.  Its something that you could have put fields on, but there was no access to it from inside the property on the center portion here, a little bit narrow there.
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Special Meeting
March 25, 2002
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        Over the past year the Town has worked to add to this property and thats the second sort of Northern section of this piece, above that arrow there.  That piece there that borders Middlebury Road is much flatter, its much drier, and its much more easily developed.  We worked up a sort of concept map.  Its very much like the one sitting over here, but what I did was I simplified it to some extent.  It was a little complicated to project up on the screen.  This again is the Bunker Hill Road side here, this is Middlebury at the top of New Wood Road down here.  This dotted line, this blue section that sort of bisects the pond, that is the section that had contamination in it from one of the neighboring manufacturing plants.  That section has been cleaved off of this project; its essentially a moot point.  We find ourselves with this limited opportunity to purchase this property.  Theadditional 75 acres that we added to this we were able to add for an additional $350,000.  The previous proposal for this property was $1,500,000.  Currently with these two pieces of property combined, the combined price is $1,800,000.  The fair market value for this property is between $2,500,000 and $3,000,000, and the disparity there is between $2,500,000 and $3,000,000 is the difference in whether or not it would be developed for residential versus industrial use, so there is some difference in what the value of the property is depending on how it would be used.

        These shapes up here in the upper left hand corner, these represent the sizes of various ball fields.  This down here being a Little League field, I believe this one at the top being a Lacrosse Field, which is the largest, if Im not mistaken, and various others, Football, Soccer, and you can see by relative scale how many of these you would be able to fit in this area.  These light green areas, the one that Im going around right now that says Phase II, all of those light green areas are considered to be appropriate to put ball fields on.  You can see that you can easily, if you sort of visually pop these things into the space, you can easily grab 10 new fields to this property.  Veterans Park has 5 I believe, 3 Baseball/Softball and 2 Soccer, so this would be essentially twice the facility that Veterans is when completed.  This little entrance over here would probably be a parking lot.  This yellowtrail here is in fact a trail, just showing that walking trails could be incorporated into this as well.  These light green areas for the ball fields that have Phase I, II, and III on them, and all of the other ones around them, the actually total about 50 acres that would be suitable for additional ball field space.

        What were going to propose on this too, besides the $1,800,000 that is the purchase price for this, would be to include in the Referendum, we dont have a hard number yet, but between $100,000, $150,000 for the actual site plan, the actual engineering plan to develop this in the future.  In talking to a lot of you individually since the January 7th Hearing, one big question thats come up is okay, we buy the land, then what happens, and how do we do anything with it from that point on, how are we going to get that approved?  One way is to certainly include that engineering plan in the Referendum itself to (inaudible).
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Special Meeting
March 25, 2002
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        There are three key reasons why this is particularly good for Watertown/Oakville:

        1.     It meets the clear need for ball fields and open space.  Clearly there is a need for this; its undisputed pretty much.

        2.     It will result in a positive fiscal impact.  Were talking about this one for a couple of minutes.  Everyone says well $2,000,000, how is that going to help us?  Isnt that going to affect our budget, and things like that?  The Sperry portion of the property, the Northermost section of the property that we added, that 75 acres, its been estimated that approximately 50 houses could be put on that plot.  Its fairly dry, its fairly flat, its an area that is pretty attractive to builders to come in and build houses.  Weve seen huge amount of development in Town over the past few years. UP above Carvel there, that development is proposed to continue over the hill down Middlebury Road.  Theres nothing wrong with development and we certainly welcome people into Town, but there is a huge fiscal impact to residential development.  The chart here is actually about meand taxes I pay and what I would potentially cost the Town.  My property and auto taxes are about $3,500 I guess (inaudible).  I have 3 children, and the cost per child in our school system is apparently $7,500 or a total of $22,500 per year which sort of makes the amount I pay in taxes a pretty minor amount.  The taxes hardly cover 10% of it.  So multiply this out by 80 homes, maybe 50 of them have a couple of kids, youre looking at 100 kids to the school system, its literally millions of dollars over the next 20 years as opposed to what it would cost to actually pay a per household fee for the bond.  To purchase the property we estimate that at approximately $17 to $19 per household, per year, to purchase the property at a bond.

        3.     It preserves our Towns quality of life.  We live here because we like the small Town.  If we didnt, wed move to Bridgeport.  Drive through Bridgeport, I challenge you to find a postage stamp size piece of open space in Bridgeport or Milford, or parts of Waterbury.  We live here because theres a certain quality of life that comes from living in a Town that hasnt been completely built out, every inch of it, and so this sort of serves that goal as well.

        A couple of summary slides:

        1.     We have a unique opportunity to create a great new park for the Town in an area that is pretty much underserved.  Most of the parks are in there northern section of Town.

        2.     Provides much needed land for ball fields and open space.  We have some big open space advocates in Town who are not ball players so this serves the needs of both of them, because not all of the space is developable as fields.

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Special Meeting
March 25, 2002
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        3.     In relative terms its a bargain.  Its not a term you see applied to for (inaudible), but in relative terms it is.  Its 26% - 38% discount off of the fair market value.  State grants on this could, and I said could, Im going to underline could, could reduce the cost by as much as $700,000.  There is grant money available, on an annual basis to towns, in the amount of $500,000, its called the STEEP grant and it applies to projects like this.

        4.     The other portion of it, and I say $500,000, the rest of it could potentially come from leaving some of this open, as open untouched space.  The State has sort of a reimbursement grant for that type of thing; 50% reimbursement on the portion that you leave open and untouched.

        5.     The approximate cost of this is about $19.00 per year, per household, a pretty small price to pay for a park like this.  Im sure anybody would be wiling to pay that.  If we didnt have Veterans wed certainly be able to pay that to build Veterans.

        6.     Its a strategic investment in our Towns present and future quality of life, as I said.

        Thats essentially the presentation.  We have lots of facts and figures to back up a lot of this stuff.  If you have questions this is a good time to do it.

4.      Public Participation
        Question and Answer Session Regarding Presentation

        Mr. Archer:  Ill open up Public Participation.  Id appreciate it if you would come up and use the microphone so Lynn can get this on tape.

        Nora Meyers, 82 Hamilton Lane, Watertown, CT  06795

        Ms. Meyers:  Can you speak to the rumor that were not bonding for parks, but it might be used for a High School?  There is that rumor flying around; I dont know where it started, or how it started, I dont know if its feasible, but Id like to hear something about it.

        Mr. Archer:  Yea, I heard that rumor too.  I think everyone has.  When the previous Council was looking at the 134 section which did not have the Middlebury Road access off of it, that was a rumor in Town.  I dont know where it started either.  It had legs though, because its a year and a half later and its obviously still being kicked around as still an issue.  The intention of this is to leave it as open space.  And I think Elisabeth Moore is here from the Trust For Public Land who is assisting in this endeavor, and she has stated to me that the Trust For Public Lands position is that if there was any intention to develop this as a school, they could not be involved in it, based on what their mission is.  Frankly I wouldnt support it either.  I dont know how to really put that concern or rumor to rest, other than to say I would not support that.
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Special Meeting
March 25, 2002
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        Peter Tomsheck, Davis Street, Oakville, CT  06779

        Mr. Tomsheck:  How much in addition to the $1,900,000 will it cost to actually develop this?  You included in your price $1,800,000 plus $150,000 to survey it.  How much will it be, do you have a cost estimate on what the actual work to develop the fields and do the park would be, and would it be wise to include that in the bonding to get it all done, as once you own this piece of property, and then you have to go back to the voters and say well we need some more money, after they just spent $2,000,000, would it be easier to take that pill as a $3,000,000 pill one time, up front, rather than coming back in bits and pieces?

        Mr. Archer:  Thank you.  I was hoping someone would say that.  $2,000,000 is a big pill to begin with and, Im overjoyed you brought that up because for me to stand here and say oh $3,000,000, well maybe we can put in Bocci Courts, another $1,000,000, it is a possibility sure.  I mentioned the STEEP Grant, which is a grant that is available year after year and it can be used for the same project year after year.  Its a $500,000.  I doubt, as a Town, wed want to spend all of it on this.  I believe it can be used for multiple projects, but that is something that would also help in putting the park together.  In answer to your question of do we have actual estimates of what it would cost to build out the park completely, we do not at this time.

        Mr. Tomsheck:  Would that come after the $150,000 is spent (inaudible)?

        Mr. Archer:  The $100,000 to $150,000 is the estimate to actually do the engineering plans.

        Mr. Tomsheck:  Once those are developed, though, you should have a cost on that.

        Mr. Archer:  Thats correct.  That would pretty much drive the cost.  You could probably get pretty accurate estimates of cost based on that engineering plan.

        John Bavone, Oakville, CT  06779

        Mr. Bavone:  If this here parcel of land is not, for one thing if the land is bought, the Paparazzo land, who gets the money for it?

        Mr. Archer:  The two land owners.

        Mr. Bavone:  Two land owners  Paparazzo, hes selling it to the Town?  No Land Trust or nothing?

        Mr. Archer:  No, the Land Trust does not work on a Commission.
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Special Meeting
March 25, 2002
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        Mr. Bavone:  Has anybody figured out what its going to cost to build these fields and to maintain these fields and all that?  We do have a lot of land now that we could put walkways (inaudible) and we have land that (inaudible) that are not done.  Should that get done?

        Mr. Archer:  Right.

        Mr. Bavone:  Whats saying now this is gong to get done here?

        Mr. Archer:  Okay you asked a couple of things.  One  the engineering study that I mentioned thats about $100,000 to $150,000, that is what would ultimately determine, you know, based on what that plan looks like, that would determine what the cost would be to actually build out the park and do the fields.  One of the things I think I forgot to mention when I was showing you the slide, is that the idea would be, and when the Engineering study is done, the idea would be to do this in phases, to break it down into pieces.  There are actually some grids on the lines here that show different phases.  As I mentioned before maintenance is an issue were looking into.  Yes, it would cost more money to maintain them.  Weve gotten figures from the Parks Department as to what it would cost to maintain another Veterans, for example, and we are looking into changing how the Board of Edcontrolled fields are maintained.  Deland is the first example of that.

        Mr. Bavone:  (Inaudible) just get the land where it is now and that was a level field.

        Mr. Archer: Relatively level, yes.

        Mr. Bavone:  (Inaudible) probably could have been done by (inaudible).  Another thing is there is open space land that they want to build a ball field, its off of Hinman or Skilton Road, a few years back and because the people in the area knocked it down it didnt go through.  Level land and (inaudible).  Its off of Guernseytown Road, either off of Hinman or Skilton Road, (inaudible) open space land.  Piece of open space land right up here.

        Mr. Archer:  Ray Primini was just mentioning that one of the benefits of this as opposed to the land up there is that this has water and sewer access which you would need to put in . . .

        Mr. Bavone:  Its open space land.

        Mr. aRche4r:  Right, but it doesnt have water and sewer, I dont believe . . . .

        Mr. Bavone:  You need water and sewer for ball fields?

        Mr. Archer:  Well you would I you were going to put . . . drinking fountains and . . . . .
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Special Meeting
March 25, 2002
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        Mr. Bavone:  There is (inaudible).

        Mr. Archer:  Well thats true.  Well Veterans Park actually (inaudible).

        Mr. Bavone:  (Inaudible) and another thing is I read about all the good things about it, which is nice.  You put on a very good presentation, terrific, about we can use it for walking trails, you can use it for cross country skiing.  We have a golf course, Ive cross country skied this about 6 years ago, when I was younger, and I never saw anybody cross country ski at the golf course.  You can cross country at Veterans Park.  You can cross country ski on lakes.  Theres a lot of places where you can cross country ski.

        Mr. Archer:  Ive done it myself.

        Mr. Bavone:  And you can make the walking trails up at Veterans Park.  Im not talking about the track, but walking trails to go around the park, going through the woods, or around the lake, I do it myself, the power lines, and this and that, but whos got to do it.  We dont live in Middlebury.

        Mr. Archer:  No, we dont.

        Mr. Bavone:  Right, so thats it.

        Mr. Archer:  Well I guess my response, I was going to say this before we were through here, but this seems like an appropriate time to do it, in presenting this Im not saying heres a great plan, really behind me and we should do this, and this is the greatest thing ever to come across the pike.  My intention in showing this is this is a response to show you some of the work thats been done since January since everyone came before us and said, God do we need more ball fields.  Im not going to take this and say this is the be all/end all plan and everyone come on out and lets do it.  Im presenting it to the Town and the voters of the Town as a potential plan.  I would hope that you guys make up your minds as to whether or not you think this has some value and whether or not we can pull off the development of it.  In order for us to go ahead and take this to a Referendum, we would need to hearfrom you guys that yea, we think this is a great idea, we think we can get this done, we think we can get our people, you know all the parents of the W.A.Y.S. kids and the Little League kids and the Lacrosse Team parents to come out to the polls and vote for this because ultimately its not the nine of us that ware going to get this passed; its you guys.

        Dennis (Inaudible), Watertown, CT  06795

        Mr. (Inaudible):  Is there a possibility of finding out whether or not these grants would be available prior to a Referendum, and someone else was talking about the 50% reimbursement possible from the State if it is kept open?  Is it possible to get those figures so it might be more palatable to the people who arent for the project?
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Special Meeting
March 25, 2002
Page 10

        Mr. Archer:  Im going to let Elisabeth talk about the reimbursement on that open space portion. (Tape #1, Side A ended  may have missed some).

        Elisabeth Moore, Trust For Public Land

        Ms. Moore:  . . . . the purchase of passive open space, and what I mean by passive is passive land that did not have an active recreational use on it so it would be appropriate for walking trails, and so on.  And the idea is that we would be applying for a grant on this portion of the property, back here in the corner, back in here, roughly about 1/4 to a 1/3 of the property.  What you have to do for the State grant is it actually takes about 9 months for the money to come through, so we would actually have to apply for the money in April and once the Town bough the property they would actually be reimbursed.  So were in the process right now of determining what area it would be that the Town wanted to put into passive open space and then actually having that appraised and submitting the grant.  I submitted the grant last year so we actually have all of the paperwork ready to go.

        Regarding the STEEP Grant, there is another grant which is the one that Lee mentioned and its available to smaller towns, I think there are about 100 different towns in Connecticut that are eligible for up to $500,000 per year, and there are a number of different types of projects that are eligible for it, and this would be one of them.  The money could be used not only for the acquisition of the property, but could also be used for the development of the property as a park.

        Mr. Dennis (Inaudible):  I guess what Im getting at is I think its a great idea.  I have 3 kids and I think its embarrassing (inaudible) kids (inaudible) field, our fields were currently playing on.  (Inaudible) to do it, I just know that there are certain people in Town who vote no on everything, whether its $2.00 or $2,000,000 and if we could somehow show that yes, we need $1,850,000, but were guaranteed to get $700,000 back, it might get a few more positive votes out of people who constantly vote no.

        Ms. Moore:  I think thats a very good point, and I think its something that this area thats actually going to be protected as passive open space is actually being determined right now and being appraised, so we would have an idea actually within the next couple of weeks exactly how much that State matching grant would be, and then it would be the determination of the Town if they wanted to put their money towards this project or possibly towards another project, because as I said, the money can be applied towards a number of different types of projects.
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Special Meeting
March 25, 2002
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        Robert LeBlanc, 78 Highland Avenue, Watertown, CT  06795

        Mr. LeBlanc:  What percentage of wetlands is on this piece of property?  Does anybody know the percentage of it?

        Mr. Archer:  I think thats what you were just mentioning as being determined, right?

        Ms. Moore:  Not all of the property that is wetlands, which includes this area, would actually be protected through the open space grant program.  The majority of it would be back here.

        Mr. LeBlanc:  My question is what percentage of the property is wetlands, not what theyre going to give away or protect?  Can somebody answer this question?  What percentage of this land is wetlands?

        Ms. Moore:  Probably about 15% to 20%.

        Mr. LeBlanc:  Of the whole property?

        Ms. Moore:  Of the entire property.

        Mr. LeBlanc:  Youre just pointing to this section here.

        Ms. Moore:  Theres this section . . . .

        Mr. LeBlanc:  Theres some on the other side too.

        Ms. Moore:  Right, theres this section right here, theres this section right here . . .

        Mr. LeBlanc:  So thats only 15%?

        Ms. Moore:  And theres this section right here.

        Mr. LeBlanc:  And the second question I have is concerning this 10 acres or 6 acres or whatever theyre cutting off where the contaminated land is, whats going to happen to that property?

        Mr. Archer:  I believe thats going to be transferred back to the company that is adjacent to . . . .
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Special Meeting
March 25, 2002
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        Ms. Moore:  The land owners actually decided, youre referencing this portion, which is the area I dont know how many of you are familiar with this section of the property, when the Town looked at acquiring the property a year and a half ago, in the midst of doing an evaluation on the property, it was determined that there was a need for more study and evaluation of a potential contamination coming from an adjacent property.  So the Trust for Public Land, over the past Summer and Fall, has spent over $30,000 actually evaluating the extent and nature of the contamination.  The soil is completely clean.  There was low-level ground water contamination found which was found related to a degreaser and dry cleaning solvent which is not surprising considering it is adjacent to a number of commercial uses.  And what the land owner has done is, the land owner is actually going to be retaining this 10.5 acreparcel which is where the limited ground water contamination is, and weve actually done extensive testing and had an Engineer and Hydrologist actually identify the line so that what the Town is buying we know is 100% clean.  So any contamination, any below level contamination that was found on this portion right here, is actually going to be retained by the land owner, and the land owner will actually determine what the next step will be.  One thing I should also emphasize is that the contamination is not originating on site; it is originating off site.  I think thats a very, very important point to make, now that the land owner will be dealing with the next step of determining what to do with the contamination that came from off site.

        Mr. LeBlanc:  So am I correct in assuming the Mr. Paparazzo is going to keep this 10 acres, or 6 acres or whatever it is?

        Ms. More:  10 and a half.

        Mr. LeBlanc:  (Inaudible).

        Mr. Archer:  Correct.

        Mr. LeBlanc:  Well considering all the factors and how much wetlands there is, and this contaminated land, did anybody approach Mr. Paparazzo to see if we could get a cheaper price on this 120 acres that are left, or is this a cut deal that were going to pay, lets say $150,000 to these (inaudible).  Is that set in concrete or could we negotiate with this man because of the problems with all the wetlands?

        Ms. Moore:  Well actually this is already a negotiated discounted price.  The purchase price on this property, as you may remember, last year was 134 acres and it was $1,500,000.  We were able to negotiate a reduction in the price of $150,000 and also that the land owner would retain this portion.  The property, as I mentioned, is worth between $2,000,000 and $2,500,000 and that the Town has the opportunity to purchase it for $1,350,000 so theyre getting a very significant discount.
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Special Meeting
March 25, 2002
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        Mr. LeBlanc:  Well thats not saying we cant approach them and ask them for another break.  Youre jus saying, you know, thats it.

        Ms. Moore:  No, thats actually what the Trust For Public Land . . . .

        Mr. LeBlanc:  Okay, I have another question, when were talking about this wetlands, were talking about the possibility of 85 houses being built on this, does that take into consideration the wetlands, or just all the good land?

        Ms. Moore:  Its definitely taking into account, this particular property, there was a plan already laid out for 35 houses on this property.

        Mr. LeBlanc:  In the paper it says 85 houses, thats what Im talking about.

        Ms. Moore:  Right, Im just talking about, there are two different parcels here.  On this particular property which is roughly 75 acres, theres a plan that has been drawn up for 35 homes on this particular property and the Town Planning Office has estimated that this could be anywhere from between 50 to 150 homes on the Paparazzo site, if it were zoned residential.

        Mr. Archer:  This is a clarification I was . . . . in making up the handout we were just being as conservative as possible, we didnt want to make it seem too outrageous, but that is what our Planning Department said, that if that were rezoned, 100 to 150 houses.

        Barbara Kaidell, Belden Street, Watertown, CT  06795

        Ms. Kaidell:  Ive been here 27 years and I love the Town a lot and Ive raised my son here, and its a great place, and Im really excited about this project that youre doing, because in the 27 years that Ive been here Ive seen a lot of the great beauty and charm of this Town disappear, and its very upsetting to me.  Im really in favor of asking you this question, or preserving property, and I was wondering, what are the future goals of the leaders of this Town to preserve open space.  I know you started with this and this is fantastic, but do you see anything in the future that will continue because the surrounding towns such as Southbury, Roxbury, they have hundreds and hundreds of acres, and were just beginning, it seems.  If you want to join the Land Trust were looking for new members.
Watertown Town Council
Special Meeting
March 25, 2002
Page 14

        Mr. Archer:  I personally am for this project.  As I said its up to the voters to determine whether or not we go forward with it.  Its not up to me, but I feel the same way.  My family roots go back a long time here and my grandfather was a (inaudible) farmer out at 7 Hills and a lot of the farmland in Town, you know, theres houses popping out of the ground and I (inaudible) to see it happen.  As far as future plans, Im not going to quote numbers because Im not familiar enough with them, there are a couple of people here who are, but I know that as part of the Towns Plan of Development, we do have a goal of setting aside "x" percentage of land.  I dont have it at my fingertips, Im sorry, but there is actually a goal for that.  One of the things that happens each year is that any monies that are put aside for that in the budget, thats usually one of the first things to go,is money for open space, and it may be a little shortsighted on our part, as a community to do that.

        Mary Blasi, 17 Howell Street, Oakville, CT  06779

        Ms. Blasi:  (Inaudible) but I do approve of this 100% and I think we need to save some of our land in Watertown.  The other thing is about a skateboard park, that that not be forgotten in with our parks.

        Mr. Archer:  We have not forgotten that as were moving into this.  I think on the, Im not sure on the map over there, I dont know if theres a drawing of what the size of a skateboard park would be, relative to the map, but Im not sure.

        Ms. Moore:  There isnt, but it could be added.

        Ray (Inaudible), Northfield Road, Watertown, Ct  06795

        Mr. (Inaudible):  I am for projects like this and do read that open space is something that as a community we should be looking into preserving.  Im asking as to why this particular piece of land is being looked at and were there any other pieces of land that were looked at that could also achieve a similar goal to this that may be less expensive, may be better suited for fields, things of that nature?

        Mr. Archer:  There are several fairly large tracts of land in Town.  This one happens to be on the market, for one, so thats a start.  And also I think that from the, I dont know, I dont want to speak for the Trust For Public Land, but I think from their standpoint this is sort of a prime one because from their standpoint it abuts a fairly large open space tract in Middlebury as well, so it sort of creates a continuous 350 acre tract together.  This one is kind of unique in a couple of ways.
Watertown Town Council
Special Meeting
March 25, 2002
Page 15

        1.     It has immediate main road access.  We wouldnt be driving people through a residential neighborhood to get to it, which is good.
        2.     It has access from a couple of points, which is good.
        3.     It has water and sewer running to it which is sort of key.  Yes we can use outhouses, but if were going to build fields, wed probably want to build them right so that they dont burn up in the middle of August, which would involve putting a sprinkler system in.  So obviously youd have to have access to city water for that.  And I believe city water and sewer pretty much run right up to this property and stop.

        So for a number of reasons, this is the piece right now.  In the future others may come on the market, but Id hate to wait and find out we cant use them and then we have nothing.

        Bruce Cianciolo, Malvern Hill Road Watertown, CT  06795

        Mr. Cianciolo:  I think one thing that were missing right off the bat is that over across from Veterans Park we have a building development going in over there, above Hidden Pond, I think were going to have to hold the people who are building these subdivisions, hold their feet to the fire a little bit.  I mean, the division thats going above Hidden Oaks there, hes giving property back to the Town of Watertown that basically is unusable. Youve got to be part Billy Goat to use it.  Okay the same thing for the tract across from Veterans Park.  So I think there has to be some kind of coordination between the subdivisions that are going in, as well as how much of this open space . . . . currently its 10% of the total subdivision, but dollars to donuts that 10% is virtually unusable.  So I think we have to be a little more strict on that.  And to sort of piggyback off of Mr. LeBlancs comment,the lady mentioned that 15% of it is wetlands.  Is that taking into consideration the buffer that is deemed by the State of Connecticut and the D.E.P., because if Im wearing my conservation hat here, I dont see how youre going to get any kind of heavy equipment in there to level out a field, put in any kind of irrigation system without crossing over wetlands, okay, and the Town of Watertown, as well as the State of Connecticut, you have to have a 50 foot buffer, or else it comes up before a Conservation Committee and then we have to put in applications and put in easements to all those types of things there, so it might not truly be 15% when you take into consideration the 50 foot buffer around that wetlands, so Id be a little concerned about that.

        Mr. Archer:  I was on the Planning and Zoning Commission long enough to see what happens when you start talking about asking builders to give up more than 10% of their land.  I think we tried that one night and the outcry was pretty amazing.  I think there were more people than this packed into the Library at Polk.

        Mr. Cianciolo:  Well the alternative would be dont build in Watertown.  If you dont like our rules, go somewhere else.  If we want to maintain our pristine (inaudible), then those are our rules.
Watertown Town Council
Special Meeting
March 25, 2002
Page 16

        Mr. Archer:  That would be good, but it wouldnt apply to people who are residents of the Town who also own land in Town that they want to develop, and thats who came out that night, and theres someone here whos going to speak to this point, probably better than I can, in just a minute.  As far as the wetlands buffer, doing the primary survey is going to tell us how much of that is actually wetlands, right?

        Ms. Moore:  Right.

        Mr. Archer:  Which is not yet complete?

        Ms. Moore:  I think whats important to emphasize here is the land that is appropriate for ball fields, and in evaluating that there is a great deal of flat, about 50 plus acres that are appropriate for ball fields.  The remainder of it, yes, there is wetlands in there, and yes there are streams, and theres also some high land areas, and theres also some wooded areas, but I think the important part to emphasize is the fact that there are 50 plus acres that are appropriate and ready to be developed as ball fields, and that is what Id really like to emphasize in comparison to when people looked at the property last year and when Lee was mentioning, these are the only two areas where its accessible for development of ball fields. Now with the addition of the Sperry piece, which is over here, you get the addition of being able to access this top knoll area, which is probably the area that many of you see when youdrive down Bunker Hill, you see the flat area, this would be it right here, so youd have access then not only to this area, but then also access to this area, so yes, there are wetlands and there would need to be a crossing right here across Wattles Brook and that engineering drawings have been done for that.

        Pat Regan, Bunker Hill Road, Watertown, CT  07795

        Ms. Regan:  I just wanted to mention one of the points made earlier on maintenance, the increased cost on maintenance.  Yes, there will be.  If we are going to grow, we are going to have go add more structures, more roads, our maintenance costs are going to go up.  There are larger parcels of property in the Parks Department it is (inaudible) less expensive for maintenance because youre not spending as much on (inaudible) them, moving your equipment, moving men around Town.  You can centralize your operations; your machinery is there, your men are there, you know where they are for the day.

        I do have one question.  Could you talk a little bit about the partnership on the Public Trust and what the partnership is, who they are, and the role they play in the purchase of this?

        Mr. Archer:  The Trust For Public Land?

        Ms. Regan:  Yes.
Watertown Town Council
Special Meeting
March 25, 2002
Page 17

        Mr. Archer:  Im going to let Elisabeth speak to that, because she can explain their mission better than I can.

        Ms. Moore:  The Trust For Public Land, I know that Ive met with you and talked to a couple of you, the Trust For Public Land is a national non profit organization and we work in partnerships with communities like Watertown, also municipal organizations like the Water/Oak (inaudible), and for Parks and Recreation, and also the Watertown Land Trust, to actually acquire private open space and protect it as public open space.  This is a very good example of the type of project that we are involved in, in a project where this one there were some issues, the property, there were two different land owners, theres also a small portion of the property that was in Middlebury.  The Town asked for T.P.L.s assistance in negotiating with the land owners, which we did, in getting an option to purchase the two properties, and then working with the Town to actually put together the funding to actually acquire the property.  So what the Trust For Public Land does is were actually acatalyst.  We help put conservation deals together for towns.  So thats what we do.

        Ms. Regan:  Do you own it, or will the Town own it?

        Ms. Moore:  The Town will own it.  We actually do not own land for the long term.  Sometimes we do own land for the short term, but in almost all cases we actually help our partner get the property off the market, as we did in this particular case, negotiating with the two land owners for an option to purchase the two properties and then working with the Town to put together the funding to acquire the properties.

        Charles Fenn, Ellen Kaye Drive, Watertown, CT  06795

        Mr. Fenn:  On the Paparazzo property, are you saying that the lion portions are level sections?

        Mr. Archer:  They are relatively level or could be made level with relatively little excavation.  The most level portions  probably the top part where it says Phase II, which is a large flat field in the middle of the Sperry property, its actually, a lot of it currently is actually an open field right now.
Watertown Town Council
Special Meeting
March 25, 2002
Page 18

        Ms. Moore:  Its a very good question.  I dont know how many of you are familiar with the Berry Farm in Southbury that Southbury is in the process of purchasing and developing.  The gentleman who did the design for the Berry Farm, Dymar, whos in Southbury actually did the plan for this particular project.  And what I asked him when looking at it is how exactly do you determine where the areas are that you would put fields, because looking at the property sometimes its not either, it can be hilly, but there might be trees.  How do you determine?  And at the end I encourage you to come up here and take a look, because this area, while it is humpy, it is actually, theres not a great deal of difference between the topography from one side to the other so its easy to level.  Also theres a possibility of putting in terrace fields, and thats the other possibility, so this is based on hisengineering judgment as to determine where potential fields would go.  Again, the idea would be that wed do it in phases.

        Mr. Archer:  The idea would be to do this in phases.  The red lines up there, you can see that one comes in from the right and over and down and another piece on the left, and theyre marked off as Phase I, II, and III.  I think its just probably makes us a little more sensitive in the phases particularly if were going to be depending on State grants to fund a lot of this.

        Jack Traver, Park Road, Watertown, CT  06795

        Mr. Traver:  One of the people here brought up the question about the rumor about putting a school on this property (inaudible) rumor except I was there when it started.  (Inaudible) I think its a real concern, and its my understanding that this property can be deed restricted so it is not possible for that to happen.  Is that correct?

        Ms. Moore:  It can be deed restricted.  There were two questions that came up.  One was the question could it be, the portion that is actually purchased through the open space on watershed land acquisition grant programs will be permanently protected by a State grant.  The portion that is (inaudible) open for fields, the Town is saying 1) that they want to purchase it for open space.  The Trust For Public Land, our mission is to protect land for people.  We believe that there is a need for school sites, but its not our mission to actually acquire school sites, so if we felt that this property were being acquired for a school, we wouldnt be involved, but also the wording of the bond language would be very clear that the property was being acquired for a municipal park and not for other municipal uses, but very clearly for a municipal park, but it is also possible to do a deed restriction.
Watertown Town Council
Special Meeting
March 25, 2002
Page 19

        Mr. Traver:  I think that it would be a real positive thing that whatever could be done, be done in that area, because somebody else asked the question what are the future plans of the political leaders of Watertown, and of course we first have to determine who the political leaders of Watertown are.  So I would ask that perhaps the Council, in their activity, somehow at least present the sense of the Council that its absolutely not being considered for a school, plus the deed restrictions, because it is a concern of a lot of people that this is really whats going to happen and that we know thats really what the Town wants is another place to put another school.  So whatever you can do to put that to rest in terms of your organization and the Town Council would be great.

        The other thing that (inaudible) map if you had Lees taxes and what hes costing the Town, Ive talked to him privately and hes not leaving Town so what were stuck with, we have the great fortune of his children in the school system, but its going to be very expensive, so I think that maybe what Im saying is, I, over the years, always speak about keeping the budget down and taxes.  At this point I think its a real juncture in terms of the Town, and some day hopefully when this goes through, some day the knowledgeable folks in Town are going to say who had the forethought and the foresight to undertake and do this?  What a great thing for Watertown.  So I think we cant afford not to do it.

        Mr. Archer:  Well Jack, in response, just a clarification first, my kids go to St. Johns , but . . . when I showed you the chart I said how much I could cost the Town.  But since you brought that up I want to go back to that slide for a second.  This is one family.  This is $22,500 they cost the Town with 3 kids.  Someone else mentioned the school cost before so I just did a quick calculation.  If you have 55 homes that got built on the property and each one has 2 kids, times the $7,500 per child for the cost to educate them in Town, its $825,000 per year forever.  And thats not counting inflation.  And thats a figure thats going to go up.  The Board of Ed requested a 6.5% increase this year.  Whether we believe thats going to happen or not is a different story, but obviously costs keep going up so currently its $825,000 per year.  $17.00 or $19.00 per household isnot going to cover that.  Even if we were to purchase this land and never drive a bulldozer onto it, were ultimately saving everyone (inaudible) money, and whatever it costs to develop it will be considerably less of the cost of not acquiring it.

        Brad Kingsley, Old Army Road, Watertown, CT  06795

        Mr. Kingsley:  Out of the 10 proposed fields were talking about, have you broke it down on how many Soccer fields, Football, Baseball, Lacrosse fields, and second part of that question is with Phase I, out of those, what are you going to be putting into Phase I as far as fields go?
Watertown Town Council
Special Meeting
March 25, 2002
Page 20

        Mr. Archer:  Youll hear me say a lot that probably all of the good ideas in Town are not necessarily going to come from the nine of us up here, theyre going to come from you guys, and that is something that is going to need to be addressed by a group of sports leaders.  Thats not something I can decide.  I dont have the knowledge to do that, of the sports needs in Town.  Our Recreation Director has some information on what she believes are the fields that we need, so we would work with her and the sports leaders in Town to determine what fields would go in where and in what order they would go in.

        Larry Chiucarello, Guernseytown Road, Watertown, CT  06795

        Mr. Chiucarello:  A couple of comments and (inaudible) one question.  First of all, the fields really cant be maintained right now, and its primarily because theyre so overused.  800 to 1,000 kids per season between Baseball and Soccer that I know of, and then you have Football.  We need new fields.  Its not a matter of just keeping up the fields because they cant even get rested.  Secondly the thing that has really swung it for me is the information Im getting now that I didnt know before.  And primarily that slide right there, I found that information out, probably at one of the little meetings that we had.  Its a no brainer when you look at the math, and I think if you go forward with this, you really have to do a good job in communication, and whatever you pay the Town Times to get slides like this in the newspaper, that has to happen.  Ad then I guess my question is, ifyou have an option on the property, whats the timeframe right now.  How long are these property owners going to be waiting for us?

        Mr. Archer:  Correct me if Im wrong, but the option on the Paparazzo property lasts until July.

        Ms. Moore:  Mid July.

        Mr. Archer:  And on the Sperry property, I think its September/October?

        Ms. Moore:  The end of December.  In both of these cases the land owners are interested in getting rid of the properties, theyve held them for a very long period of time.  This property owner has been interested in getting rid of his property for awhile, and now this property owner in negotiating with us, is interested in also selling it, and the Trust For Public Land has negotiated with both of them, and if the Town doesnt ultimately acquire the property both land owners are interested in getting rid of them and most likely they would be put together by a developer.
Watertown Town Council
Special Meeting
March 25, 2002
Page 21

        One of the questions that somebody had was why now?  Why this particular property?  One of the issues that comes up is the very fact that you have an opportunity now to acquire this property.  This particular area was identified (Tape #1, Side B ended  may have missed some).in the late 1990s and heres an opportunity to acquire 200 acres.  And there may always be other sites to consider, however, there is an opportunity to acquire this property now with ample space for fields, also for passive open space, but at the same time at a very good price and with land owners who want to act now.  This particular land owner has been working with the Trust For Public Land and the Town for almost 2 years and is frankly ready to see this resolved one way or the other and move on.  Mr. Sperry is interested in similarly resolving it.

        Ms. Blasi:  If you did purchase this, how long would it take to develop fields, park?  How many years?  I have an 18 year old daughter who never had a skate park, who has (inaudible) bicycle.  I have a 12 year old son now whos around Town on his bicycle, kicked off his skateboard, confiscated if hes caught on it.  Will he have a chance or will it be Veterans Park possibly that we could bring up the skate park back and go forward on, or will he not have a chance in Watertown for a skate park?

        Mr. Archer:  To the point of how long it would take to develop this first, that depends on a lot of things.  Actually I think the first person who spoke mentioned can we just ratchet up the amount that we take to Referendum and do this all in one big chuck?  Obviously if we do that it will get done a lot quicker.  That I couldnt tell you.  We have not worked out a timeline development plan for this yet.  Regarding the skateboard park - sure, Id love to see one here in this park.  I dont know that theres more space up at Veterans.  The last Town Council meeting a week ago, we did ask the Parks Department to see if they could identify additional space that could be used for that other than that small lot that theyre currently using up at Veterans.  That was a week ago and they havent had a chance to respond to us yet, but there is movement in that direction.

        Mr. Cianciolo:  Can we also look at on-going costs further on?  Like theres a figure floating around Town for every house that goes into (inaudible).  In addition to Board of Education costs you have Police, Fire, Road Maintenance, Public Works, and stuff like that.  What other types of costs will be put against the Town of Watertown for on-going maintenance such as water, you say we have water going in there, we have Fire District water, youre going to have upkeep of the fields and so forth, so after the initial $3,000,000 that we put to buy this and make our ball fields and everything else, have you looked at certain costs that are going to be down the line 8, 9, 10 years from now?

        Mr. Archer:  Some of those weve gotten and some were still collecting.  Clearly there are on-going costs with it.  Im not going to try and tell you theres not.  Could I give you a hard figure on that right now, no.
Watertown Town Council
Special Meeting
March 25, 2002
Page 22

        Mr. Cianciolo:  (Inaudible) in her experience with acquiring property from other towns what are typically some of the costs going on in other communities that they are seeing and maybe this might be a great opportunity for you guys to take a look at as a best practice in other towns such as Middlebury/Southbury.  What type of costs have they incurred 7,8, 10 years down the line to keep these fields up and useful?

        Ms. Moore:  Its a very good question.  I think it really depends on the property and it also depends on the, as Pat mentioned, sort of the economy of scale in a sense.  It really depends, but in something that I believe that we have spoken with the Parks Director about in terms of what his needs are in terms of maintenance and its not only capital costs but its also personnel.

        Mr. Cianciolo:  In the State of Connecticut they (inaudible).  Is there a similar piece of property that you could draw some kind of information from on what these costs might be?

        Ms. Moore:  I think, to be honest with you, it would probably be more accurate coming just because the costs vary by Town, it would probably be the most accurate thing coming from the Parks Director here in Watertown specifically.

        Ms. King:  (Inaudible) we have a lot of experience here in Town in operating (inaudible) for the really good things for the Town at Veterans and even over the years we werent, okay one of the fields (inaudible) last years budget to repair that Soccer field (inaudible).  We were going to put sprinklers in, well we should have done it in the beginning, but we didnt.  I (inaudible) a lot of history in running Veterans and understanding what it takes to run that and what the Parks Department does there and we could probably (inaudible) understand that.

        Mr. Cianciolo:  To play devils advocate, we also have a lot of history where the Watertown High School Football Field that, you know, kids are turning ankles and hurt knees and stuff like that because the irrigation system wasnt (inaudible).  An also to piggyback off of what Mr. Tomsheck said earlier, if we knew all associated costs up front, and I realize the $2,000,000 pill is very hard to swallow, but if we knew what we were buying up front, and we knew that we could (inaudible) that all this information and all this maintenance is going to be signed up for 8, 10 years down the line, and all the cards are on the table per say, and now you put the bond (inaudible) $3,500,000 instead.  At least all the figures and facts are up front.  I think that would be appropriate.
Watertown Town Council
Special Meeting
March 25, 2002
Page 23

        Mr. Archer:  Yea, I agree with that.  I think weve gotten to a point in this where we need to put this before you guys and:

        a)     get your feedback, which is very useful, and
        b)      to determine whether or not were going to pursue this any further, to collect a lot of those figures and start doing all those calculations is going to eat up a certain amount of man-hours in the Town, amongst the Town personnel and before we pursue that, its good to get a read on whether or not people want to expend the time to do that.

        Mr. Cianciolo:  Well I think its well worth the effort, and I think its what the Town needs, but I think we ought to do our due diligence and know what all the numbers are up front.

        Carol Grant Linkfield Road, Watertown, CT  06795

        Ms. Grant:  Theres a lot of people who are concerned about the long term costs.  I think it would be helpful, too, to put in front of the Town, if we dont buy this as a park, how much is it going to cost us in long term costs if it does goes into a development?  Because I could imagine staffing it up with Police and other town areas, not including education, is going to be a heck of a lot higher, so its not if we do nothing we dont pay anything  if we do nothing and not purchase this, its going to cost us long term a heck of a lot of money if its used as a development.  That needs to be made very clear, because that seems to be a big point here and in any kind of project that if we do nothing it will cost us nothing, and thats just not true.

        Mr. Archer:  However, if we were to purchase it and then never do anything with it, its a savings.

        Ms. Grant:  Exactly, Im in complete agreement (inaudible).  What Im saying is for people who look at things as if you dont buy it, it doesnt cost us anything, so therefore vote no.  What Im saying is if you make it real clear that if we dont buy it, its going to cost us an awful lot.  Im just saying as far as marketing this (inaudible).

        Mr. Archer:  Right, that has to be made as clear as possible.

        Mr. Chiucarello:  Without getting into a debate, I just want to say really weve got to look at this as an investment in the future of Watertown.  Sometimes an investment might go bad, but if you protect it, it will stay secure.  I think if you start to think about whats going to happy 8 or 10 years down the road, you start to muddy the waters, because no matter what, youre not going to be able to guarantee a price 8 to 10 years down the road, and until you actually start going in there and making fields, thats when youre going to know what its going to cost you, so I really think you have to sell it as look, this is an investment for the future of Watertown, were going to protect it, and when we have an opportunity to develop it, well develop it.
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Special Meeting
March 25, 2002
Page 24

        Bill Donston, 105 Dunrobin Lane, Watertown, CT  06795

        Mr. Donston:  Apathy is defined as a lack of emotion or indifference.  The apathy is the statement, why buy more if we cant take care of what we have now?  Several people have spoken tonight about the difference between the Town and the Board of Ed, and I think what has happened with the Board of Ed has put a serious crimp on anybodys ideas and plans for the future in this Town.  Park and Rec, look what theyve controlled  Sylvan Lake, well maintained very clean.  Echo Lake, facilities are clean, the water pollution has nothing to do with Park and Rec.  They didnt create the problem, but they have to live with it.  The Town Gazebo, the little green in Oakville, Veterans Park.  Veterans Park had a basketball court added to it, had the Bocci lanes added to it.  Well maintained.  A project like this, were giving our trust to the Park and Rec.  Lisa Carew and hercrew, theyve got my trust.  They do a damn good job in this Town in maintaining what theyve been given and they try to improve on it.

        The Board of Ed is whats bringing down our ideas and our projects.  They dont maintain, they do not take care of what theyve been entrusted with.  At the February 7th meeting most of the fields that were talked about were Swift, Deland.  I encourage any one of you to walk Deland Field.  Ive been over there several times.  Im concerned about a beautiful backstop to catch foul balls thats 59 feet behind home plate.  Thats going to catch a lot of balls from bouncing off cars on Echo Lake Road.  Section of fence that hasnt had a ballplayer lean against it yet, 5 of the 6 wire ties holding that fence to the framework are falling off.  Covers for irrigation systems on that field are not screwed down.  I was a Catcher in High School, first year of college.  20 feet from home plate to the first base side line theres an irrigation cover thats not secured.  Theres 2irrigation covers down behind the first base coachs box not secured.  Thats what were talking about, a Planning Commission, so that things like this dont happen.

        Weve talked a lot about fields.  I think its also important that other interest groups be mentioned.  What about the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts?  In the some of the back property up in here they could do, some of the non-active open space is great for scouting activities.  Maybe a tennis court, handball or racquetball, sports like this, especially handball and racquetball, if well put up, have very low maintenance after the initial cost of putting them in.  Skateboarders, BMX Bicycles  kids have to go to Torrington for a local course, a lot of travel time.  Maybe a bridle path.  Again, what we consider non field use people in Town maybe would like to ride a horse in Town.  I dont know where they go locally, other than maybe down in Naugatuck on the State Bridle Trail.  We didnt talk about open door pavilions.  There is one at Veterans and over by Echo Lake.  Moreoutdoor pavilions so that families that dont need sports facilities, sports fields, and Lisa can correct me if theres another one . . . .
Watertown Town Council
Special Meeting
March 25, 2002
Page 25

        Ms. Carew:  Crestbrook.

        Mr. Donston:  Crestbrook, okay Im sorry, I wasnt aware of that one, I stand corrected.  More areas for people to have family outings and things.  We talked about the Town track and turned ankles at the Football field.  Maybe if the football field with a track was put in, that might solve some of the Board of Eds problems.  Again, Im sorry if I missed any of the special interest parties, and they should speak up at the planning session.

        We have both sides of the coin, on either sides of us.  We have Woodbury, Southbury, Middlebury, Bethlehem to name a few, small towns with budgets like ours who fight for every penny and what to do with it.  They buy up land for open space and recreational use, realizing that if their town becomes over-developed with housing, theyre going to wind up like the flip side of that coin, Waterbury.  You saw what happened to Waterbury when they developed all of Bucks Hill, and what has happened, theyve gone so far into debt they need a special commission from Hartford to be put together by the Governor of this State to try at least look at how to get them out, not get them out, but look at ways of getting them out of the problems theyre in.  Weve got that on either side of us.  Can we be budget minded, better budget control or broke?

        In closing, former Senator Robert F. Kennedy has been attributed to saying "some men see things as they are and ask why, I dream things that never were and say why not?"  What we do tonight and days forward will shape the Town for our children, our childrens children, and theyre children.  They are the dream.

        Mr. Ray (Inaudible):  Projects like this, Im sure, dont come around very often, but if you have a tract of land like this available, theyre not necessarily available on a daily basis or a yearly basis, and it would be a shame to let things like this pass by because we may not have another opportunity, but I do have a question as to if other tracts of land are available like this, what is the procedure in Town to have another tract of land looked at like this at some point in time in the future?

        Mr. Archer:  Im not sure exactly, I dont know, maybe Elisabeth needs to speak to this because Im not exactly sure what the genesis of the relationship between the Town and the Trust For Public Land was, because it predated my being on the Council so I dont know, maybe youd want to speak to that?
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Special Meeting
March 25, 2002
Page 26

        Ms. Moore:  The Trust For Public Land was approached by the Town.  The Town as aware that Mr. Paparazzo was interested in selling his property and there was interest on the part of the Town of acquiring it, so the Trust For Public Land was called in and asked to assist in it. But I think in terms of evaluating different properties, I know that the Town, I believe that Lisa Carew put together a list of properties, and she could speak to this, properties that she had identified, with I believe the assistance of the Parks and Rec Commission, properties that they were interested in acquiring for park and open space and have actually prioritized them.  I dont know if Lisa wants to talk about that?

        Mr. Ray (Inaudible):  How does one add a piece of land onto that?

        Lisa Carew, Recreation Director, Town of Watertown

        Ms. Carew:  The Planning and Zoning Department has already earmarked areas.  The Park and Rec Commission has prioritized a certain tract of property as property adjacent to Veterans, say or Crestbrook or (inaudible).  Anything around Winnemaug, theres definite places around Town that the Commission has earmarked for future parks.

        Mr. Ray (Inaudible):  Are you aware of any tract of land between . . . . . .

        Ms. Carew:  Weve heard a lot about (inaudible) Im sure its the same thing.

        Mr. Ray (Inaudible):  (Inaudible).

        Ms. Carew:  Well I mean, you know, youre hearing rumors probably that something might be going on the market, but I havent heard anything.  Were looking, what weve done . . . .

        Mr. Ray (Inaudible):  I havent said what the piece of property is so I was just curious . . . .

        Ms. Carew:  We have heard that there might be some farmland that comes on the market.  We havent officially heard anything.  This is here now so . . . .

        Mr. Ray (Inaudible):  Right, Im not implying that this is a bad project, or something that shouldnt be done, Im asking for future reference, how does something get proposed to the Town, does someone have to come to you, does someone . . . . whats the procedure?

        Ms. Carew:  It wouldnt be the Recreation Department that would be negotiating.  It would be via the Town Managers office or via the Town Council that something would be negotiated.  It wouldnt be through my department.  But again, there is a Master Plan thats been developed that has all of the . . . I mean, theres some big chunks of property (inaudible) theyre still in farm or whatever that we have earmarked that we would definitely be interested in.
Watertown Town Council
Special Meeting
March 25, 2002
Page 27

        Mr. Ray (Inaudible)  What are those pieces of property, do you know off hand?

        Ms. Carew:  Well any of the bigger farmland that you have in Town.  At either end of Town you have some very large parcels of property.

        Mr. Archer:  Sir, I would think that if, in fact, someone wanted to, if they owned a piece of property and they wanted to start a conversation with the Town, the onus would be on them to come forward and start the conversation.  I dont think weve been in the business of going out and beating the bushes for property.

        Mr. Ray (Inaudible):  But as residents if we were aware of the fact that there are large pieces of property that are being looked at for development purposes, and as a community were trying to keep open spaces, how does one make that aware to somebody in the Town so that they could add to the list or whatever . . . . .

        Mr. Archer:  I would speak to the Town Manager, Chuck Frigon is our Interim Town Manager and he would be the guy to contact.

        Ms. Kaidell:  I think what hes been saying is the goal that I asked you - what is the goal for the future?  What are the leaders planning to do to keep their ears to the ground and say we want to preserve in Watertown, we want to be on top of this, we want to have hundreds of acres that we want to keep open because our children will have nothing, nothing.  What place are we going to leave for them?

        Mr. Archer:  I agree.

        Ms. Kaidell:  Its going away and where do we go to get our feelings out and say look, we want to get a group together, we want to do something, we want to join partner with the owner, can we do something?

        Mr. Archer:  I think that this project probably is an entree to start a larger conversation about the value of acquiring large tracts that could be developed into residential property, as a community, buying them and we all jointly own it in order to:

        a)     keep the space open, and
        b)     keep our tax rate down as much as possible.

        Has there been a big free and open discussion on that topic in this Town?  Amongst a small group I think yes, you know the Land Trust being part of it and a lot of Friends of the Land Trust.  Among the larger community, I dont think there has been a real active discussion.  I dont think that everyone understands the fiscal impact of a bunch of houses being built on the property, and this is probably a good entree into that discussion.
Watertown Town Council
Special Meeting
March 25, 2002
Page 28

        Mr. Bavone:  If a farmer sells his land to the State and sold the development rights, as a lot of farmers in Town have done, now can these farmers still look to the Town for (inaudible) open space land?  Does anybody know?

        Ms. King:  I happen to work with the (inaudible) with the State on this.  There have been towns that have determined that they would like that type of program.  There is (inaudible) program in the State where a farmer can sell his land for open space and get the same amount.  In other words, they sell their development rights.

        Mr. Bavone:  They sell their development rights, and I know farmers who have done that, sold the development right to the State, and if they wan to sell that farm, it has to be used for . . . . .

        Ms. King:  It has to stay in agriculture.

        Mr. Bavone:  Agriculture or not built on.  The building rights.

        Ms. King:  But the States open space grant that Elisabeth . . . .

        Ms. Bavone:  I know (inaudible).

        Ms. King:  Have often bought farmland.

        Mr. Bavone:  Yes, they do, I know farms in Town that did that.

        Ms. King:  But theres a limited amount of money for their farmland development rights programs.  There are many, many people on waiting lists across the State for those who purchase the development rights.

        Mr. Bavone:  The State just bought hundreds of acres along East (inaudible) River and (inaudible).  So in other words, they cant sell it to the Town for open space?

        Ms. King:  I dont believe so, (inaudible) development rights.

        Ms. Moore:  Thats an interesting question because this actually came up for the property, and if a farmer, I dont know if those of you who are familiar with the farmland protection program, but literally a farmer can sell their development rights on their property so that they have sold literally the development potential of their property so they can maintain it in farming, the Town, any entity can buy that property as open space.  They would not be able to develop it, even as a park.
Watertown Town Council
Special Meeting
March 25, 2002
Page 29

        Mr. Bavone:  (Inaudible).

        Ms. Moore:  Right, they could buy it as open, but they would not be able to develop it as fields, because that is essentially what the land owner, the farmer sold to the State, so its restricted in that way.

        Judy Wick, Northfield Road, Watertown, CT  06795

        Ms. Wick:  Im just getting a sense of what people are saying here.  I would like to suggest that everybody here talk to 10 people and have those 10 people talk to 10 people (inaudible) and when it comes time for a Referendum, make sure theyre there.

        Mr. Archer:  I think there are a zillion copies of these brochures here, so if anybody wants to take a few and hand them out to people, feel free to.

        Mr. Dennis (Inaudible):  I think its very important, the options are up in July, not to set a Referendum in July when a lot of families who would probably vote yes might be away on vacation or in their Summer mode and not involved in the school (inaudible).  Its very important you set this Referendum for May or June when a lot of families are all talking, attending ball games every night, (inaudible) that you set it at a time when families are together and talking (inaudible).

        Mr. Archer:  The tentative plan was to do it in early June, hopefully before schools are out, but that will depend in large part on whether or not . . . . .

        Ms. Blasi:  Its too late.  You should do it earlier. You dont want to wait until June.  Everybody is thinking about graduations and getting out; its too late.  Do it earlier.

        Mr. Tomsheck:  May.

        Many people talking at once (inaudible).

        Mr. Archer:  The one issue we run into . . . .

        Mr. Chiucarello:  They cant keep up with the grass in May.

        Mr. Archer:  The only thing we bump into in May is potentially the Referendum schedule for the budget.  Generally thats held right in the middle of May.
Watertown Town Council
Special Meeting
March 25, 2002
Page 30

        Mr. Tomsheck:  From what Ive read, you were going to separate the Referendum into two parts anyway, why cant this be added as a third part?

        Mr. Archer:  As an additional question?  I dont . . . . . yea, we would, yea I cant tell you whether we could do that or not but . . . . all suggestions are good.

        Dave Grainger, 525 Mt. Fair Drive, Watertown CT  06795

        Mr. Grainger:  Im the President of the Babe Ruth program in Town.  Were here to see involvement with Water/Oak A.C.s.  Ive been lucky enough to go to a lot of different towns and be able to play and take teams to facilities that started with ideas on paper just like this.  You can feel the sense in the civic pride in the teams, coaches, parents that come to the games, all of which had hard work, bumps in the road, a lot of problems to get things down, because if you get to the right people and ask them questions, you know, how did you build something like this, how did you get started?  Theyll all tell you he same thing  it wasn't easy.  It took meetings like this, it took people working together to make it happen, but the end result was a facility that people can go to whether theyre kids, middle aged, elderly, whatever it may be, and theres something there for them to enjoy.

        I really think that it would be so great for something positive in this Town that happened where groups worked together to make it happen.  Youve got some tremendous coaches in this Town, youve got tremendous civic groups in this Town and as coaches we all teach teamwork, and I think it would be such a great thing for our children to be able to see organizations in this Town work as a team to make something like this happen.  Whether its 5, 7, or 8 years it doesnt make any difference; you take it one step at a time.  You know, I was one of the first ones to jump on the bandwagon as soon as I heard about it.  I just think its a wonderful opportunity. Veterans Park is a magnificent facility.  We get all kinds of positive comments from teams who come there from out of Town.  It does take a lot of work, but I think the end result is something that we, as Townspeople, could all be proud of. When peoplecome here, or we go there to walk . . . . I dont plan on moving; Ive been here 13 years and I want to take my children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren hopefully to facilities like this in Town as something we can be proud of, and say I remember when we sat in Swift Auditorium and talked about this, and something happened and we got groups working together as a team and started it happening.  Thats how other places have done it.  Theyve done it with State grant money.  A lot of it has been done with volunteer work, people like us getting out there and doing it and making it happen.  And its there forever for people to enjoy.  I think it would be a great thing for us to have our kids see people in this Town, instead of reading about everybody going this way, everybody coming together and working together to make something like this happen.
Watertown Town Council
Special Meeting
March 25, 2002
Page 31

        Richard Donston, Woolson Street, Watertown, CT  06795

        Mr. Donston:  Contractors have accountability in the Town of Watertown.  I think Planning and Zoning should disband.  Theyve got their heads in the sand.  Right up here we have this nice piece of land here, Smith Pond Road and Honey Hill and (inaudible) 10 acres.  Beautiful.  Its divided by a brook; Honey Hill Road on one side, (inaudible) on the other side, houses all around it.  Its land locked.  What good is it?  (Inaudible).  Spot up here on Hinman Road we talked about earlier tonight.  Mr. Bavone left, but his brother Auggie went up there with a bulldozer, (inaudible) plowed the whole thing down.  Lisa will remember this.  And we were going to build a ball field up there.  Its 400 feet long, 388 feet wide.  We were going to build a ball field up there.  Somebody in their infinite wisdom put a sign up there, future home of theWatertown/Oakville Little League.  All of a sudden the neighbors got a hold of it they dont want a Little League stadium up there, so they go to the Town, the Town Council backed down.  Hinman Road, theres 5 acres up there.  Go down here, all these orange spots on this map, theyre all land that contractors gave to the Town of Watertown as open space.  Its useless.  Most of it is wetlands.  Theres a guy in Watertown that was mentioned earlier on Nova Scotia Hill Road who is building 8 houses up there.  He gave a piece of land  to the Town.  Its ledge and its wetlands.  Its a swamp up there.  The beavers built a dam; its right off of Route 6.  I can go on and on and on.  But every spot you see there, theres a nice piece of land over here up by Polk School.  Its 2.5 acres.  It could be a skateboard park; its landlocked.  Make the contractors make good for this land that theyre giving us, ifthe land is no good or if its landlocked, or people from the Town of Watertown cant get in there to use it.  Thank you for bringing that up, Mr. Cianciolo.

        Mr. Primini:  We are always looking for donations.  Somebody mentioned about land up there, but I think this gives some of the opportunities of whats good with this Town.  I moved into this Town prior to Veterans Park when we only had Sylvan Lake and Echo Lake.  We didnt have hardly anything for ball fields at all or anything, and if you look at the way Veterans Park was developed, there were a lot of people who put a lot of time in there. Most notably I could think of right off the bat is our Lions Club here and theres a lot of people that put a lot of work into that.  I just think the cost of not doing something like this, I remember when I moved into town 18 years ago, what a lot cost back then and what a lot is costing us right now in Town.  The cost is always going up obviously, but the thing weve always talked about for quite awhile was doing this in phases.  Veterans Park isprobably one of the best examples we had.  It was all done at once; there was sections done at a time.  I think it gives us an opportunity to at least get a start.
Watertown Town Council
Special Meeting
March 25, 2002
Page 32

        One thing we heard at the last Public Meeting we had, there was a lot of people, and in talking to people all around Town, the people want to help.  Ive learned from being on the Fire Department if you ask people for help, people will come out in this Town.  I think weve got a lot to be proud of in this Town, and I think as far as the cost of this, one thing Ive been proud about, when I grew up in Waterbury, if I didnt get into Little League, I didnt play ball at all.  In this Town our kids have a lot, my daughter played Softball, my son played basketball, they had opportunities.  Yea, I paid for it, but they got the opportunity to play sports, and I think thats one of the ways we generate out of these things, how we keep a lot of this stuff running at the same time, and there are a lot of people right there that have been very actively involved in a lot of these different things here and were alwayswilling to hear what people have to say.  Were not the experts in ball fields by any means and we depend on a lot of people here for that.

        Mr. Fenn:  I just wanted to say thank you to the Town Council for basically going out and doing your homework and presenting this to us and taking the initial step to figure out where (inaudible) to go and (inaudible) to push for more land for ourselves and for our kids.

        Mr. Bill Donston:  One important thing I didnt hear mentioned tonight is were talking about spend, spend, spend, but what can we realize from it.  I also along with Dave and Richie over here, coach and among the Board of Directors for the Babe Ruth Organization.  Two years down the road Naugatuck is going to host National World Series for Babe Ruth.  Theyre talking about substantial amounts of money coming into the Town of Naugatuck because they have the facilities to do that.  I look at the eventual fields like this, maybe Special Olympics are always looking for sites in Connecticut, Babe Ruth in Watertown has been approached when are we going to have at least State Regionals in our Town.  Obviously because of our field availability, not condition, we havent been able to do this.  But there are things that large tracts parks could be used for to bring people into Town that are spendingmoney at our local merchants.  I know somebody like LaBonnes would be a hey day for people using the park for sodas and things like that, and McDonalds, and any of the little stores around there.  Thats one of the things, to have a proper facility like Mr. Grainger said, then you could have tournaments, or a Town sponsored road race like they have in several communities around the State.  Bring people to our community and start bringing some money back into Town.  This is a way to bring some revenue into Town that we need to look at too.

        Dave McKerry, Platt Road, Watertown, Ct  067795

        Mr. McKerry:  Could you refresh my memory on what the two questions are?

        Mr. Archer:  Thats the budget.
Watertown Town Council
Special Meeting
March 25, 2002
Page 33

        Mr. McKerry:  (Inaudible) but I am concerned and obviously there are a lot of people here who have children, that really use recreation fields and (inaudible).  Unfortunately there are many people who had children years ago and (inaudible) may not be so passionate about fields.  So I think when you go to Referendum, I do believe that you have to have a question on purchasing open space, maybe have a dollar amount that you would spend if you received actual open space money, and then a separate question on purchasing this property.  Ive been in Town over 20 years and I think this property has bee for sale almost all of that time, so the threat of development there I dont think is very high.  Theres a parcel down, Warren Farm, Berry Farm went on the market a few months ago thats 100 acres on 63.  That parcel (inaudible).  Now its for sale and wants $1,500,000.  I think you have tolook at that and youre going to evaluate by July and you should look at a parcel like that and evaluate as to this and maybe have a Referendum where youre going to spend $3,000,000 not to build ball fields, but to buy 2 pieces at different ends of Town so (inaudible), otherwise I dont think its going to pass.  If you put this on, I dont think, youre going to lose it because the people who come out and vote for the budget, unfortunately arent the people who have children.  And we see that every year on our school budgets every single year.  Youre putting all your cards on open space acquisition in the future on this particular property.  I think if youre going to spend money on a Referendum, you have to have a two part thing, or look at other parcels and evaluate one time purchasing of everything (inaudible) delay your ball fields which (inaudible) because there are other parcels that you may not know are available, but they are.

        Ms. Adams:  Back in the late 80s, Judy, the Town sent out a survey asking people what they wanted to see in their Town and upon that we built the comprehensive plan.  Wasnt it an overwhelming amount of people who responded wants to see open space and more parkland?  It was one of the primary quality of life issues for the Townspeople.

        Ms. Wick:  Before we did the Plan of Development in 1993, we sent the survey out and actually we got about a 15% return which is very high, and I think about75% to 80% of the people indicated that they would be willing to have their taxes increase for the purchase of open space.  As to those numbers, the result of that survey numbers were eventually with the Plan of Development (inaudible).

        June Legge, Oak Drive, Watertown, CT  06795
Watertown Town Council
Special Meeting
March 25, 2002
Page 34

        Ms. Legge:  One of the reasons that we havent been able to get some of these things passed is because we have had, I think the word is apathy (inaudible).  If were putting out a push now during the Spring season, and its not (inaudible) very well with all these fields and things, who would be more aware of our needs than the parents, and with all the children that we have in the schools, not just the elementary, from the high school and everyone needs the fields, if we push now, now is the time to do it, not after the seasons are over and you begin to forget.  Now while theyre living it because (inaudible) with the Spring season, so now is the time to do something, and I think that all the parents and various groups come together and we can do it because its really a relatively small group that gets out and votes all the time and kills us.  But we are the ones who are responsible.  If were reallyfor this, we really have to get together and speak to 10 people, and have thus people speak to more people and push the (inaudible).  I would say that now is the time and we should get working on it.

        Mr. Archer:  Just a clarification of what you said.  You said youve been in Town 20 years and this property has been for sale if not all, most of those 20 years.  The Paparazzo property, which is the lower half of this, I think youre absolutely right cause I know that sign has been there for a long time.  Theres been an attempt to turn it into an industrial park for about 15 or 20 years.  The top portion, the Sperry portion which is zoned residential there is an actual, Im not sure, I know you came in late, but there is an actual site plan for residential development on that property that includes about 35 houses if Im not mistaken.  So that will happen very, very rapidly if that particular parcel is not purchased.  The Paparazzo site, you know, it is feasible that the owner of that could apply to have the zoning changed on that to residential.  I dont know if that would ever gothrough, but it is feasible that they could do that.  I have no knowledge that theyre going to attempt to do that, but it could be done.

        Kenneth Green, 430 Northfield Road, Watertown, CT  06795

        Mr. Green:  (Inaudible) number of people in the room right now as representative of the people who might be in support of the open space project it would pass by an overwhelming support.  I think, too, some of the difficulties that weve experienced with budgets and so forth in the past in this issue, I think were polarized (inaudible) and that is preservation of what all people in Watertown hold dear, and that is a place for their children and to maintain what Watertown has grown to mean to them.  So I think it is a win/win even for thus people who typically oppose budget expenditures and (inaudible) budget because its not representative of a price or increase thats exorbitant.  And when you present it on the premise that it will stop development or at least curb development, which is not something that you want to do entirely, but you do want to maintain.  I think if it was presented in thatfashion, you would have a win/win for everybody and those in opposition will be few.
Watertown Town Council
Special Meeting
March 25, 2002
Page 35

        Mr. McKerry:  The Sperry property (inaudible) and once again I see something (inaudible) can be severed from the larger piece.  (Inaudible) maybe you dont get the 300 acres that you want, but you might get your first open space purchase and thats more important, so I think you have to be careful about setting your sights just on that piece because the people who have been here a long time, such as myself, I think the price tag is too high on that property.  If there was interest in that property, other than the Sperry, that property would have sold, so I think you have to separate them.  The properties that are (inaudible) are the ones that you want to acquire, not the ones that people are waiting for you take off their hands.

        Chris DiPitina, 209 Kimberly Lane, Watertown, CT  06795

        Mr. DiPitina:  Ive only lived in this Town for about 6 months in the new development over (inaudible) and Im here representing about 10  12 of my neighbors and aside from telling them to vote on this, what else can I do, and whats the general timetable on whats going to happen?  Is there anything else (inaudible)?
 
        Mr. Archer:  Well you can sign up on t