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MINUTES
WATERTOWN TOWN COUNCIL
REGULAR MEETING
POLK SCHOOL LIBRARY
MONDAY, JULY 15, 2002, 8:00 P.M.
PRESENT: Elaine Adams
Lee Archer, Chairman
Raymond Hebert, Jr., Vice Chairman
Robert Kane
Jean King
Raymond Primini
Paul Rinaldi
Paul Valenti
Richard Wick
ABSENT: None
OTHERS PRESENT: Jack Carroll, Police Chief
Charles Frigon, Interim Town Manager
Randy McHugh, Town Attorney
Frank Nardelli, Assistant Town Manager/Finance Director
Harry Ward, Parks Director
1. Call Meeting To Order
Mr. Archer, Chairman, Called the Meeting to Order at 8:00 p.m.
Mr. Archer, Chairman, Called a Recess (television cameras were being set up).
Mr. Archer, Chairman, Reconvened the Regular Meeting at 8:10 p.m.
2. Roll Call
Ms. LaForme, Board Clerk, executed the Roll Call.
3. Pledge of Allegiance
Mr. Archer, Chairman, led the Pledge of Allegiance.
Watertown Town Council
Regular Meeting
July 15, 2002
Page 2
4. Public Participation
Craig Cordon, 58 Earle Avenue, Oakville, CT 06779
Mr. Cordon: There's a proposal tonight on the Agenda from the Lion's Club to renovate one of the fields up at Veteran's Memorial Park and I'd like to see the Town Council look at that favorably. First of all it's a very generous offer from the Lion's Club which wouldn't cost us anything which is a nice plus with our budget problems right now. It would take some manpower, which the Lion's Club has offered too, and also some of the organizations in Town are also willing to do that. Hopefully the Town Council will look at that favorably and we get a first class field for Softball next year.
Ron Russo, Chairman, Parks and Recreation Commission
Mr. Russo: You do have the documents that the gentleman spoke of. We have members of the Parks
and Recreation Commission here tonight, the Subcommittee who worked on this proposal. We're here
strictly for informational purposes. We did give you a lot of background probably more than you needed,
but we wanted to be complete. If anyone has any questions, of course we are supporting this proposal also.
Al Carr, 740 Hamilton Avenue, Watertown, CT 06795
Mr. Carr: I got a copy of the report done of the speeding problem out on Hamilton Avenue and would
like to know if anyone has any information about what is going to be done about it.
Mr. Archer: We don't have that report in hand at this particular time. I think that report was
commissioned by the Police Commission.
Mr. Carr: This was from Philip Deleppo.
Mr. Archer: It hasn't been forwarded to us at this time. I believe the proper channel it's supposed to go
through is the Police Commission as they are the traffic authority in Town. I understand there was an issue
last week with a meeting being cancelled, without any notice of it being cancelled. Is that correct?
Mr. Carr: Yes.
Mr. Archer: Chuck, this came up as an issue during the Budget Public Hearing. This gentleman and a
group of about 6, 7 other people had come to review these findings in this study with the Police
Commission, and apparently they had cancelled both Summer meetings and I guess there was no feedback
back to them that it was cancelled. Is the only function currently to notify people that a meeting has been
cancelled, a posting on Town Hall?
Watertown Town Council
Regular Meeting
July 15, 2002
Page 3
Mr. Frigon: Yes (inaudible). We make an attempt to post that on the Internet as well, but that's the only
method we have at this time.
Mr. archer: I know we asked you to come here so I want to make sure I'm absolutely clear as to exactly
what happened. Did any members of the Police Commission know that you were coming to review this
particular document that night?
Mr. Farr: Not that I'm aware of. What I'm concerned about is we got a petition together over 6 months
ago with quite a few names on it to address the speeding problem down Hamilton Avenue, which this study
and you say this has not been forwarded to you or this Board? If it hasn't I'll be glad to make copies of it
and give it to you personally. The communication is not the best around here about who does what and who
has what, but I personally would take it upon myself to make copies of all of this and present it to each and
every person in Town if that would help. It seems that the Town has a problem communicating with all of us
so it would be no problem for me to do this personally, if that's what it takes to get the Town Council or
someone to address it.
Mr. Archer: I don't know that that's what we need to do.
Ms. Adams: I think what you may be referring to with Phil Deleppo is a report he did for the State to look
for some help. I guess there's a hump there and I believe he put together something. This was awhile ago if
I'm not mistaken.
Mr. Carr: Quite a while ago.
Ms. Adams: 8 months, I mean, it was quite awhile ago and I don't believe we received it yet, but Phil feels
it's a safety issue and it's a good chance we'll receive some, I believe it's federal money, toward this for
hazardous road maintenance or things along those lines. I'm not completely familiar, but when we have a
break here you and I can speak.
Mr. Carr: What was done, we complained about the speeding issue, and I think it's a known fact
throughout the Town at the Safety Meeting the first time we went there, I forget who it was, but he was ware
of this and said openly that he's been aware of it for numerous years. There has been a study done that
shows there is an extreme speeding problem there. They've got a report from Deleppo to try to get the hump
cut out. The funding has already been approved to take the curve out, near the dump at Artillery Road.
Taking that curve out and cutting this hump is going to do one thing – increase the speeding.
Ms. Adams: Were you looking for Stop Signs to slow down the traffic?
Watertown Town Council
Regular Meeting
July 15, 2002
Page 4
Mr. Carr: Well I don't have the training, and I wonder if anyone in this Town does, to analyze the problem
and come up with the answer, a quick, cheap solution would be several Stop Signs. Now I'm aware of the
fact that's it's supposedly even illegal in this State to use Stop Signs for speed control. Personal opinion –
idiocracy. Whatever it takes to slow the people down, as this report plainly shows, there's people running in
excess of 75 mph in a 25 mph zone. They're passing on the left hand side on a double yellow line, passing
on a double yellow line in a school zone, I mean it's just out of hand. I myself personally had an accident like
4 weeks ago. A guy was trying to pass me on the left-hand side, flying. I happen to look in the rear view
mirror and saw him flying up the side of me. I was making a left hand turn. I pulled back in the right lane, he
already pulled back in the right lane and sped past me on the right hand side hitting me, passing in the grass,
partially hit me and left the scene, went up past my house at 740 Hamilton, and then went through the Stop
Sign at Quassy trying to get away from me, and almost caused another accident.
Now whether it's the Safety Committee, whether it's the Town Council, whether it's the State Police, the
Federal F.B.I. or whoever I have to go to, I would love to see something done to decrease the speeding, the
passing on the double yellow line, flying by school busses while they're parked picking up my kids.
Numerous times the black marks are still on the road there where they passed the school bus sliding on
brakes, when he's on top of that hill (inaudible) school bus. They just come flying down that road all day and
all night. We brought a petition with over 200 names on it. Yes, they did this little research and come up with
these numbers, which just proves our point. Yes, we have seen increased police activity in that area with
radar. The first report that we got from the Police Department was some big number of people that they
stopped speeding. I forget the exact numbers, but like 1/10 of them were given tickets, the others were
given warnings, no one was arrested.
I'm asking for some help. That's the reason I'm here tonight, for that one reason. I'm looking for someone to
tell me how, short of my parking my car in the middle of the road and stopping these idiot people from
driving so fast, what can I do to stop the speeding on that road. Now I know it's a bad problem in a lot of
places. I'm here tonight speaking about the problem on Hamilton Avenue. Can anyone direct me to the
person or persons, committee, state affiliation, whatever, can someone please help me?
Mr. Archer: Can you give me a minute?
Mr. Carr: Yes, sir.
Mr. Archer: I'm going to put someone on the spot here. Jack, I wondered if you could enlighten us a little
bit on how the traffic laws work and why . . . . .
Watertown Town Council
Regular Meeting
July 15, 2002
Page 5
John Carroll, Police Chief
Mr. Carroll: As the gentleman just stated, there has been increased activity out there. We hit that area
pretty hard, and we're continuing to hit it. We have the study. Phil Deleppo, we have a new device that
actually calculates the speed, even the temperature of the road, and so forth and there's no question – it's not
only Hamilton Avenue, but it's all over Town. We're doing the best we can do on that. We've increased our
activity out there. We have the documentation on how many . . . . we did make arrests out there, there's no
question about, and we'll continue to do that, but in the meantime it's just a state of where we are, doing the
best we can with what we have. But as far as, the Police Commission has this report. They won't be
meeting until September, and until that time I'll certainly direct activities again out there. That's the best I can
do.
Mr. Archer: But to the best of my knowledge, well okay, the Police Commission needs to take action on
the report and make recommendations to you.
Mr. Carroll: That's correct.
Mr. Archer: And then they make recommendations, I'm sorry, I'm just trying to work through this in my
head.
Mr. Carroll: Without (inaudible) recommendations we're out there because we do receive complaints and
we act on those complaints. We have the target times according to that report and we're acting on those
target times when the speeding is at the time where it is just not reasonable. So that's the time that we're
going out there. That's what this report indicated to us. There's certain times of the day, certain days of the
week, that we activate our patrols out there and we have the resources to do such. And that's basically what
we're doing. That's how we're handling the problem right now. The issue of Stop Signs, obviously you
know the concerns are with that that it's not a regulation for speed. The only regulation for speed is
enforcement and that's where we're at. I can understand this man's problem. I go out that road every day. I
mean I stop cars myself out there, and again we run into the problem that it is residents that are usually the
culprits in the area and we like to give them a break, at one time, and do a little bit of public relations, but if
it's excessive, he's talking about 70 mph, there's no reason for that at all, and that's handled with strict
enforcement.
Mr. Archer: No, he didn't say it doesn't happen . . . . .
Mr. Carr: No, I'm saying would you like to see it?
Mr. Archer: Absolutely.
Watertown Town Council
Regular Meeting
July 15, 2002
Page 6
Mr. Carroll: Yea, it's pretty comprehensive. We do have that device, the Highway Department has that
device where again we institute it on Middlebury Road to see what the difference was, when they instituted
the Stop Signs, to see if that was a factor or to, and we'll be actively using that device throughout the
Summer. It's pretty comprehensive as to what the times are, when the speeds are occurring, what types of
vehicles they are practically. It's something that's going to be very useful to us and be able to put our
resources in at the timing of the actual violations, so there's certain times that it's a high risk, and that's when
the activity is taking place, and that's the time when we should be targeting it instead of going out there and
we're not using our resources to the best of our ability all day, and just having a Police presence. We want it
to do something and there's been documentation that we do have a lot of. I think the man can verify that he
has seen Police vehicles out there more than he's ever seen them out there, and we have taken a lot of action
out there, more so than any other road in Town at this point. But it's not only Hamilton Avenue. It is a
continuing problem throughout the State. I don't think you can go on 84 and do 55 without getting run over.
Mr. Archer: Even after the Police Commission meets and reviews this study, I mean they can make any
recommendation to you, but they're not necessarily within the confines of the State Statutes. What are the
other, than sitting out there and nabbing people when they come by, what else is there that can be done?
Mr. Carroll: My point at my level, within my scope of my authority, the only thing I can take action on is
the enforcement, and that's what brings it down, nut it brings it down, unfortunately, not for the long period of
time that we'd like it to be. But the advertisement is out, we put the trailer out, I think this man has seen the
trailer out there on many occasions. You might laugh at it but it works.
Mr. Carr: Well it shows people . . . . may I speak?
Mr. Carroll: I'll tell you, it shows people what they're doing, but it is a deterrent. When you're coming up
on that thing you don't know if there are Police up the road or not. We don't have the resources to actively
use it to the fullest compliment that we can, then you know, at least it's something out there. There is a
presence out there, there's a big presence out there. I can understand this man's concerns and we're doing
the best we can with what we got.
Mr. Archer: I understand it completely myself. I live on 7 hills and that's a race track up there
Mr. Carroll: That's the next target right there. That's absolutely absurd what they do out there.
Watertown Town Council
Regular Meeting
July 15, 2002
Page 7
Mr. Archer: And I've seen the bus thing happen with my kids crossing (inaudible).
Mr. Carroll: There's a bus thing with the State. Bus drivers can report, and we will issue summons and we
have issued summons on vehicles that passed school busses, just on the driver's report alone. So that's an
issue that, if a car passes or even comes close to violating the school bus violation, that that report. If it's
issued by the school bus driver, it's taken seriously and we issue a summons on every school bus violation
that is reported and commented by school bus drivers. If something went screaming by a school bus and it's
reported by the school bus driver that can be taken seriously and it is.
Mrs. Carr: It's only (inaudible) though, correct?
Mr. Carroll: Correct.
Mr. Kane: Is it possible, or maybe you're already doing this, to have a Police Officer at the time that
children are let off and at the time that they're picked up, is that possible or does that make sense?
Obviously it's happening probably 24 hours a day, but most importantly when school gets out and . . . .
Mr. Carroll: Well at one time we had officers track school busses if there's a problem, and watch the
stops, that's the best way to do it. But to sit at a stop, that would be taking a lot of resources to track every
school bus stop, but we've done that on occasion when there's been problems with a school bus run, if it's a
hazardous run, or there has been reports from school bus drivers of near misses or not, people coming the
other way and not acknowledging the fact that those caution lights are on, we do that.
Mr. Kane; No, but I mean at the school itself. I assume that's where the problem is happening, going by
the school. Oh, you're saying when they let the kids off at their house.
Mr. Carroll: I think what he's referring to is at every stop, when they let the stop, you know there is a
problem with that hill out there. That's the natural configuration of the road. I don't know what the
Engineering Department is going to do with that, but if you make the road straighter and wider you're going
to make it faster.
Mr. Carr: Thank you.
Watertown Town Council
Regular Meeting
July 15, 2002
Page 8
Mr. Carroll: There are some people that deter road construction because of that reason. I mean that also
is a hazard, but evidently it's just a matter of having the resources within our Department is to enforce it, and I
still believe that when we enforce it, and on a regular basis we could do, in areas that have a problem, that
speed definitely comes down, because somebody is going to be walking away with a $140, $180 ticket, and
that's the only thing. When you hit them in the pocketbook, it makes sense. But you're going from Stop Sign
to Stop Sign and you're speeding in between and you're increasing that speed and increasing danger of
people rolling through Stop Signs, you're creating a bad habit and the National Transportation Authority will
tell you that that is not the way to go. In fact it is a dangerous situation to promote that. I mean I can see
them I some intersections, but if you're going to Stop Sign that place all the way up the road, you're going to
see a lot of skid marks, and you're going to see a lot of people developing the habit of rolling through a stop
sign and there's going to be, the worst collisions you have are intersection collisions.
Mr. Archer: Is that the logic behind that Statute?
Mr. Carroll: Right there's a lot of logic and a lot of information about it. There' actually seminars, I can
bring you information that will show you that is not the way to do it, that enforcement is the way to do it, and
I hope that, I'm sure he's seen us out there. There's no question we've been out there.
Ms. King: I just had a couple of thoughts on this. First of all would it be possible for you to ask the Police
Commission to have a meeting before September with the people from Hamilton Avenue. I mean I
understand people want to cancel meeting because there aren't many people around, but I don't think it's
necessarily fair for them to wait for September. Maybe you could ask them to have a Special Meeting and
schedule it with these people. Secondly I'm struck by the fact that we have two departments in Town, that
sounds to me working at cross purposes, both with the best of intentions. Jack is doing is best to keep
people from speeding. Phil is trying to find a way to make the road better so people can speed on it. That's
not what he's trying to do; he's trying to make it safer, but that's what is really bothersome to me, on how we
figure out that kind of communication between the two departments. It may be up to the Manager to say, we
routinely if Phil comes in here from Public Works and says we're going to apply for a grant to take a nasty
curve out of the road or a bump, we think that's great, but don't know that in fact we may be making
something worse. One other thing I'd like to say to the Chief, if there's any way that we can say to you that
we're supportive of you giving tickets to people without trying to be too nice to them, I mean, I think we've
reached a point in this Town where I understand that you're trying to give people a first chance and maybe
more but as you said, if you give people tickets then they stop speeding. Just say that we would be behind
that because we know it doesn't make good (inaudible).
Watertown Town Council
Regular Meeting
July 15, 2002
Page 9
Mr. Carroll: No, it's not that we are being nice to them, but if you have a person who's making the
complaint in the neighborhood, and 2 days later you get them going 60 mph, I think that person should be
slammed. I've got no problem with that.
Ms. King: Absolutely.
Mr. Carroll: I'm just talking about the person who is habitually in that area and extend that courtesy the first
time, because if they're doing it once, they're going to be doing it again, unless . . . . I'm not condoning
speeding by any means, but I'm talking about someone who is excessive, but I don't think there's anyone, if
you travel Hamilton Avenue, you're not going to go 25 mph. No one in this room is going to go 25 mph.
And you're not going to do it on Middlebury Road either. There's going to be occasion where you're going to
step over that line, but the same thing is saying that we are in the community relations business and sometimes
that's the individual's officer's discretion and that's what I watch is that discretion. If they're giving no tickets
then I'll step in and say what happened out there? Well one does it all the time and one doesn't we have that
situation sometimes, but I'm not just saying that the policy is to let them go. Everybody gets stopped and let
go sometimes, but that's our opinion.
Ms. Adams: I agree with Jean that I really think we need the Police Commission to meet some time in the
very near future to discuss this with the residents there. I take a little exception to the comments regarding
coming out and making roads faster. My understanding of getting rid of the hump in the road was because of
site lines. People going either way could not see what was after that, and that was also based on resident's
complaints.
Mr. Carroll: Well my point was if you're going to do it, it's going to happen whether it's for safety or not.
That bump has been under consideration for many years.
Ms. Adams: I understand. Now the third thing I think when I'm hearing tonight and what I'm just seeing in
Town is we have a lot more people moving into Town, more people, more traffic, more cars, more speeding,
etc. I think it all seems to me, especially what's on the table now with Planning and Zoning what's coming
down the pike with all these subdivisions, (inaudible) seriously look at is increasing the amount of officers in
the Police force to go out and take care of its citizens. We discussed this a couple of weeks ago, that there's
a need.
Mr. Archer: Which is going to require year over year support of the budget in order to pay for those
officers.
Watertown Town Council
Regular Meeting
July 15, 2002
Page 10
Mr. Carroll: Well I'll second that. In fact we actually are pursuing grants with the Department of
Transportation right now into the development of a safety program. The Town Manager is aware of that and
we're prepared to present something tonight, but we're researching it a little deeper, but we're going into
other alternatives on how to prevent this problem with speeding because it's going to be one of our top
priorities due to the increase in Town, and that's where we're at right now.
Mr. Wick: There is an old fashioned remedy that I saw a little over a year ago in England - speed bumps –
and when I questioned the appropriateness of it, what I was told was that they construct and engineer them
for almost any speed that is desired, and the idea is that the speed bump would be a natural way to control
speed, because of the engineering of the bump if someone goes significantly over that speed limit, he will be
doing damage to his car, so after awhile people learn to deal with speed bumps with respect. Is that a
possible solution in our modern day and age here?
Mr. Carroll: I'd have to refer that to the engineers. I'm not going to go there.
Mr. Wick: I don't think it's an engineering problem; it may be a bureaucratic problem, but it stands to
reason that it works because it's sort of a corollary to the potholes that used to be on some of the roads in
Town which were natural speed control devices.
Mr. Carroll: There's possibilities in everything with the new dimensions that go on and the new
technologies. I'm not saying it's a bad idea. Someday you won't be driving your car anymore, it will be done
remotely. But as far as speed bumps goes, when you put something in the road, whether public or State
Highway, someone assumes the liability for whatever you put in the road, whatever that device is. As we
well know on the Main Street, if you put crosswalk signs up and someone runs them over, you're responsible
for them. So that's the issue. That's the only thing I step up and take issue with. If we were held harmless
and the Town was held harmless and it was a way of reducing speed, you could put stop sticks our there,
I've got no problem with that.
Mr. Kane: Although I agree with Jean and Elaine, as the Chief said, this is a Town-wide problem, and not
just Hamilton Avenue area. Being the Town Council, the highest authority in Town, maybe it's something that
we have to do to bring public attention to this matter in the form of a public hearing, or some type of Town
meeting, but we need to bring it to the attention of the public, not just a particular Commission, so I think we
should take it to a higher level and have the full Council bring it to the public, whether it's an educational
session, or a public safety session, and have the Police involved and all the departments, but I think we need
to solve this Town-wide, not just one particular neighborhood.
Mr. Archer: So two things, Chuck. I do think there is sort of a thing where we're got. we may have
different departments pulling in different directions.
Watertown Town Council
Regular Meeting
July 15, 2002
Page 11
Mr. Frigon: Phil is well aware of the speeding problem on Hamilton Avenue. This is a condition that has
been reported. There have been complaints on both positions. There have been accidents at both sites and
Phil (inaudible) so does not consider a hazardous condition a speed deterrent. It's something that needs to
be dealt with as a hazardous condition. The speeding condition is certainly a problem and one that has to be
dealt with individually from the hazardous condition.
Mr. Archer: I think Mr. Kane is exactly right. This is a Town-wide problem so let's make it a Town-wide
issue.
Mr. Carr: Chief of Police, I forget your name, I wasn't laughing at you, sir. Don't take offense to that. I
was laughing at the machine. I was standing in my front yard at this big radar machine, which is extremely
visible, and you would think that people would see this and go . . . . when they're running 50 mph. I was
sitting in my front yard and watched this machine for many hours. When they crossed the hill they were
running 51 mph. There were 2 police cruisers, 3 police officers, standing at this machine getting ready to
take it down and move it. When they passed the 3 police officers, 2 cruisers, and this radar machine, they
were still running 47, 48 mph. That's what I was laughing at. It did not deter them but 3 mph from the top of
the hill to the machine, the 100 yards with the Officers standing right there. Great idea; personal opinion, it
didn't do much.
Stop Signs – they said you shouldn't use Stop Signs for speed control. It's been done on several other roads
and that was the purpose of them at Middlebury Road, Whispering Hill Road, I was just made aware of the
other day. 3 Stop Signs, the entire area isn't ½ mile long. We're using Stop Signs for speed control. Can
we please use them on Hamilton Avenue? As far as cost effectiveness, I agree we can't put a Police Officer
with a radar machine in every intersection, and we certainly can't put them at school busses when they stop.
That won't work; it's not cost effective. But a simple Stop Sign, and I use a simple $50 Stop Sign, I don't
have any idea what a Stop Sign costs, I don't have any idea what the installation of that Stop Sign would be,
but I personally would pay for the one to go up at Hamilton Avenue near my home, to protect my kids, if
that's what it takes to do it. As far as stopping the speeding, the Stop Sign you say you hit people in the
pocket for the speeding and it slows the down, if they're speeding away from the Stop Sign they get a ticket,
if they're speeding in between them they get a ticket, and then they get a ticket for rolling through the Stop
Sign. Let's hit them 3 times instead of one time. The cost effectiveness of the Stop Sign I think will (Tape
#1, Side A ended- may have missed some).
Watertown Town Council
Regular Meeting
July 15, 2002
Page 12
Communication between different departments of this Town – absolutely correct, nil to none. When I left the
meeting the other night, speaking with the lady in the back, she gave me a list of names of people I could
contact. One of them was, I forget the gentleman's name, but to her understanding was the Chairman of the
Police Commission. Just had left the Police Station and had left my little notebook there. Thought there was
going to be a safety meeting. The lady there said there was going to be a safety meeting at the High School.
After communicating with the Police and Fire Chief, said that that safety meeting was in progress. We go
there and find Mr. Archer there. Thank you for talking to us. I apologize for the other gentleman, he wasn't
so nice. There wasn't a safety meeting; no communication. I go back to the Police Station after speaking
with you to get my little notebook and I talked to the lady there and asked her why she gave me bad
information. She told me she had just talked to the Fire Station and they said that the meeting was there. So
I read her this (inaudible) group of people, one of them being the Chairman of the Police Commission, she
said no, that's not him. He had been changed, that it was not him. She brought down the list off the wall, the
official list for the head person in the Police Station at that time, dated 2001 with some guy's name on there
who wasn't even in Town anymore, and I said do you mean to tell me that you cannot tell me who the
Chairman of the Police Commission in this Town is right now at this time. She said no sir, I'm sorry, but I
cannot
Mr. Archer: I'm sorry. Who was this? I've lost you at this point.
Mr. Carr: I'm sorry. I'm rambling.
Mr. Archer: No, no, who . . . . .
Mr. Carr: I don't know the ladies name. She was the person behind the plate glass, bulletproof window in
the Police Station the other night. After I spoke with you I went back to the Police Station and the woman
there who greets people who come into our fair Police Station could not even tell me who the Chairman of
the Police Commission was. I said if someone were to call here and ask you to please put them in contact
with the Chairman of the Police Commission, you could not tell them who that person was. She said that
was correct. That's poor. That is poor.
Mr. Archer: I'm not going to debate you on that.
Mr. Carr: Speed bumps – great idea, let's put up speed bumps, take out all the curves, take out all the
humps, natural speed deterrents. Let's flatten the entire area, take out all curves, and let people run 100 mph
and pay money. After paying money to take out the humps, take out the curves, let's spend some more
money and put up some speed bumps. That makes really good sense; personal opinion. Thank you for your
time.
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Regular Meeting
July 15, 2002
Page 13
Mr. Archer: Chuck you and I will speak off line about setting a date for that; that's a great idea, Mr. Kane.
Mr. Valenti: Is that going to be a joint meeting of the Town Council and the Police Commission? I mean
seeing as they're theoretically at least the subject matter experts on this. I'm just throwing it out there.
Mr. Archer: Absolutely.
Mr. Valenti: We say that we value the volunteers on boards and commission and these are volunteers
also. I though it would be a good idea.
Mr. Archer: But I don't, I mean I was on a Commission and I don't think we took the Summer off. And
these guys showed up for 2 meetings in a row and they never happened. It's not getting done, and they want
something to get done, so if we have to step in then we step in.
Ms. King: Just a clarification. There's a separate thing. We're going to set up a meeting with the Police
Commission with the people from Hamilton Avenue, and then you had a discussion about whether the
Council would also have some meeting in general about the issue of speeding. Two separate meetings, is that
what you're thinking about?
Mr. Archer: Yes, I'm sorry, I forgot the first one.
Ms. King: I mean the Police Commission which has had experience with dealing with this with roads all
over Town and with people coming and discussing it and making decisions about whether there should be
stop signs, I think (inaudible) ought to meet with these people and talk about it at that level for the problem
on Hamilton Avenue separate from the issues of what's going on (inaudible).
Mr. Archer: Yes, I think they owe these people who expected them to be there a separate Special
Meeting that they set up to meet with these folks, however it is a Town-wide problem and I think that a
larger Public Hearing is in order as Mr. Kane suggested.
Mr. Kane: With all due respect to my colleagues, what I'm saying is let's not debate who should do this
and that, let's take care of it. I mean it's a Town-wide problem. This gentleman is not alone; this speeding is
happening all over Town. The Council has to step in and say hey look, we need to bring attention to this
matter, we need the public aware of this matter and whatever Commission that needs to be there, should be
there, regardless of who it is, because it's a Town-wide problem and we need to get this fixed.
Mr. Valenti: I agree.
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Regular Meeting
July 15, 2002
Page 14
Mr. Carr: I'm with Mr. Kane 100% on that. I hope I speak for the neighborhood of Hamilton Avenue.
We're not looking, personally I'll speak, I'm not looking for a Special Meeting just for Hamilton Avenue. It
would be great. Everybody's got families, vacations, you take Summer off several months in a row, a
meeting of the Safety Committee. I'm not really sure if there's a safety meeting and a commissioner's meeting
and a cancelled meeting, but however many different meetings there are in this Town, if we could have
everybody face to face at a public meeting, all officials in one room, and let's (inaudible) and get it done.
Mr. Kane: That was my suggestion.
Mr. Archer: The best thing that you did was to come out here and air your concerns publicly for the
record, on the camera, in a public forum. This is how, I'm sorry if I get Mr. Smith here, but this is how this is
supposed to work. If someone has an issue they come before the Council in a public forum and address
them. They don't go behind their back and throw rocks. Come forward, tell us what the problem is so we
can get out there and solve it.
Mr. Carr: It would be great for a Special Meeting just for Hamilton, but then you're going to end up with
1,000 meetings because it is a Citywide thing.
Mr. Archer: Well I was just thinking the Commission owes you guys the respect of just getting together.
Mr. Carr: Well I thank you for that. Supposedly they voted not to have those meetings at a meeting that I
was not there. I did not attend that meeting. That was my fault, my fault for not having all my residents from
my area to keep up (inaudible). We dropped it. That's our problem, about a group meeting with everybody
face to face so everybody has every report that I just gave you, that in my opinion you should have had when
it was printed, you being the head guy there, not biting at you, at the (inaudible) I'm biting at, everyone here,
especially you people up here, should have had this report, should have reviewed it, and should have been
ready to discuss it at this meeting, personal opinion. You all don't even have it. Somewhere somebody is
not communicating. A lot of non-communication in this Town amongst the officials.
Mr. Archer: Yes, I've seen it too.
Mr. Carr: Who's dropping the ball (inedible)? Is there one person that is in charge of acknowledging
meetings, problems throughout the Town? Is there one person who is supposed to be like the head person
to let everybody know what's going on? Or can we elect one? (Inaudible).
Mr. Archer: If I had nothing to do but this all day, I guess that's what I would do.
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Regular Meeting
July 15, 2002
Page 15
Mr. Carr: And I know you're all volunteers, and I don't get involved in many things, I try not to, but this is
one that I feel very strongly about and I will be involved in it until someone kicks me out and arrests me, but
it seems like there's no communication in this Town, from the little bit that I'm getting involved in. The left
hand doesn't know what the other one is doing.
Mr. Archer: Absolutely.
Mr. Hebert: When it comes to the boards and commissions, there are some things that are done on the
board and commission level that don't reach us until a final decision is needed for approval to spend money,
receive money, or something of that nature, so there is a lot of business that is done at a board or commission
level until a) someone like yourself comes for public participation and registers a complaint about no action or
lack of action or b) a final approval is needed to receive or spend money. So there's some information that
we're not going to get until a final decision is needed. It's supposed to be handled at the lower level.
Mr. Carr: Okay, I know things have to be delegated. (Inaudible) I didn't want to have to see that every
nail in the yard was picked up when I was doing a roofing job. I had a very low paid guy in charge of that.
But it was my job to go behind him and make sure it was done and at this level . . . .
Mr. Hebert: But you coming up here tonight, telling us there is a problem, so now it's in our court and it will
get addressed.
Mr. Carr: Thank you, but if everything comes to you, to this Board after all of the business has been done,
and it only comes to you as far as spending the money, then there's a lot of information that you're probably
going to miss as to maybe we could have done it this way for less money. You're getting this person's or this
commission's idea of how to do it and not getting the whole picture. I'm wondering if there is a way to get
more people involved in lower levels so that upper levels will have more information.
Mr. Archer: There may be. That is something that we have to give some thought to because . . . .
Mr. Carr: (Inaudible) it seems like the power people aren't getting all of the information until it's time to . . .
we have to make a decision tonight and here's the information we had, but had we had this information prior
to this time, maybe we could have voted a different way or had more information. I don't know how it
works but it seems like a lot of people don't have the information that they should have at the time that they
should have it, and I don't know how to solve it, but I think it would be a great idea if we could figure it out.
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Regular Meeting
July 15, 2002
Page 16
Leo Buonocore, Oakville, CT 06779
Mr. Buonocore: I have the same problem this fellow has. I live on a road in Oakville, which I went to the
Commission last week and complained about, and I live close to the Waterbury line and what's happening in
Oakville, they short cut from Bunker Hill down into Davis Street. You eliminate all of Main Street. All these
little side streets around that lead into Oakville. I watched during the school year busses coming real close to
getting whacked coming out of these side streets into the Main, and so the Police Commission called me
today and they're going to start something on it, so I had the same problem. I have grandchildren getting on
the bus too.
I just came here tonight to, I guess you already realize we lost a hardware store in Oakville, which I'm going
to miss and I'm sure most of the people in Town are going to miss it. I was going to go over a few things, but
Mr. Frigon worked all day on solving some of the problems I was going to ask you about. I thank you
Chuck for beating me to the punch.
Jim Petroccia, 22 Highmeadow Road, Watertown, CT 06795
Mr. Petroccia: I think we all have (inaudible), but now I found out why there's a (inaudible) Middlebury
Road. I just could not understand what that was supposed to be for. I'm here again to address and keep
alive the new Town Hall issue. What I would like to see is the Town Council initiate a Town Hall Committee
to deal with this matter. If we don't address this situation I believe that we may be subject to a daily or a
violation change of non-compliance by the Connecticut Records Administration. They did that to Thomaston
quite a few years ago and they built a new Town Hall or they repaired the one they had.
In 1995 a Special Town Hall Committee made a report on their findings. (Inaudible) reports has been made
for many years, various Councils, and of course you know it's been going on for about 40 years. But here's
what they said – the Town Hall, the Town currently occupies about 10,000 sq. ft. of office space, when
(inaudible) indicate that between 34,000 and 40,000 sq. ft. are necessary to operate efficiently. The same
office space is currently scattered in a minimum of 5 locations making it difficult for the Town administrators,
employees, Townspeople and visitors to conduct Town business effectively. In most cases parking for both
Town employees and walk in traffic is significantly deficient. Handicapped access is unavailable or marginally
compliant. The Town Hall and Town Hall Annex in particular routinely handles Town business with
handicapped or disabled individuals outside of the building. Now that's a report from the Committee. I'm
not sure that (inaudible) would agree with that.
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Regular Meeting
July 15, 2002
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Now the Town has been sited by the State regarding the inadequate size of the Town Clerk's vault located in
the old Town Hall building. Based on the Town's size and population, the vault should occupy about 1,000
sq. ft., but the one we have there is basically a walk in closet. I think I have a closet at home that is bigger
than the Town vault. The property of the existing Town building does not lend itself to expansion. The
Committee was hard pressed to find a site on Main Street that could accommodate the parking and building
requirements of a new Town Hall, which will require about 5 acres of land, so the Commission eliminated
Main Street as a possible site for a Town Hall. That's the minimum sized piece of land that you need for a
Town Hall to do whatever you have to do with it.
Would you please get something started because you are the only people that can do this, and I think we
should do it, and let the majority decide on a new Town Hall. Thank you.
Mr. Primini: That's been a bone of contention of mine about some of the different committees we're having
kind of doing the same, thing but going in different directions. We're finally having the Facilities
Subcommittee meet with the Public Buildings Committee this Wednesday night. If you want to come to that,
by all means. I remember talking to you and I'd like you to be involved with the Town Hall, because I don't
want to reinvent the wheel. I know you've been involved in this for a long time and I know there's a been a
lot of studies done and that's one of my biggest bones of contention – is that we're always reinventing the
wheel. Just sitting at the Budget Meeting the other night, I could think of 100 ways to save money and we're
going to have to spend some money to start saving some money. The rents we're going to be paying pretty
soon are going to be up to about $67,000 per year just for Depot Square. That's one of the reasons why I
own a home instead of renting one, because my experience is rent always go up, and it's going to keep going
up and up, I guess 2% or 3% over the life of the contract. The other thing was, when I was sitting in that
Budget Meeting, once it hits 10:00 p.m. we're paying custodians time and a half to be here, even at these
meetings. The time is coming where we have to spend some money, but it's going to save us some money in
the long run. There's been gimmicks about renting space, but that's a temporary solution and I totally agree,
something has to be done, so hopefully the first step is in place for putting these two committees together
instead of going in different directions, and like you said, instead of all these different committees, I definitely
would like you to be involved because you were previously. If you'd like to come Wednesday night, we're
going to be discussing that issue at about 7:45 p.m. at the Town Hall Annex.
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Regular Meeting
July 15, 2002
Page 18
Mr. Rinaldi: I was Vice Chairman of that Council, way back when, when that Blue Ribbon Committee
was charged with finding space. I believe you were on that Committee, Jim. We asked them to give us
several options, and what happened at the time, of course this was based on several things too, location,
which was important, and several other things, I don't remember what they were, but there was a list of
things that had to be considered when considering a place. They gave us 3 locations: the number one choice
was where the John Trumbull School is, and the second choice is no longer available, but the third choice is.
I'll tell you later where that is, if you want to consider it. A lot of people are still of the belief that the Town
Hall belongs on Main Street because that's almost impossible the way things are going right now, and I think
there are other spots that are just as good, so maybe that third site should be looked at again.
Ms. King: Just one thing that I wanted to correct, because people are watching this at home, Mr. Petroccia
was reading from a report in 1995 or 1996, our Town Hall and our Town Hall Annex are handicapped
accessible now. Nobody has to be met on the front steps of either of those buildings and hasn't been for a
couple of years now. First we did the Town Hall and then we did the Annex. I'm looking at Chuck, but they
are handicapped accessible as are the other places where our other offices are, Public Works and Planning
and Zoning. Am I correct?
Mr. Frigon: Yes.
Ms. King: I wouldn't want anyone to think that our public buildings are not handicapped accessible
because they are.
Mr. Primini: Well one of our biggest issues, and it's been going on for at least 30 years, is the vault space
that you had mentioned. We've been cited over and over, but for some reason it just keeps getting put on a
shelf. We're supposed to have at least 1,000 sq. ft. which is probably about the size of your average ranch
house and what we have is about 75 sq. ft., which's about the size of your average bathroom. We definitely,
it's something that's been going on for a long time and we have to get on gear and get some attention to it.
Mr. Petroccia: Will that be an open meeting?
Mr. Primini: Yes.
Ms. King: Is it Public Buildings and Facilities Subcommittee meeting together?
Mr. Primini: Yes.
Mr. Archer, Chairman, Closed Public Participation at 9:03 p.m.
Watertown Town Council
Regular Meeting
July 15, 2002
Page 19
5. Minutes
A. Regular Meeting Minutes – June 17, 2002
MOTION: (Ms. Adams, sec. Mr. Kane) to Approve the Regular Meeting Minutes dated June 17, 2002 as presented.
Discussion: None
MOTION PASSED UNANIMOUSLY
B. Special Meeting Minutes – June 13, 2002
MOTION: (Ms. Adams, sec. Mr. Hebert) to Approve the Special Meeting Minutes dated June 13, 2002 as presented.
Discussion: None
In Favor: Ms. Adams, Mr. Archer, Mr. Hebert, Ms. King, Mr. Primini, Mr. Rinaldi, Mr. Valenti, Mr. Wick
Opposed: None
Abstained: Mr. Kane
MOTION CARRIED (8-0-1)
6. Sub-Committee Reports
A. Manager Search Committee
Mr. Archer: Mr. Dick Bennett from Dick Bennett & Associates, obviously the owner, was here on Thursday and Friday and he had a half hour to 45 minute interview with a number of people in Town, mostly department managers. He met with Dr. Ramos, all the members of the Council, I believe, he met with Chuck and Frank, a whole number of people. His firm tries to talk to as many people as possible and try to get a flavor of the Town and get a cross section of opinions in what they should be looking for when they look for candidates for Manager. I was the last person to speak with him on Friday afternoon, and he was fairly well satisfied with the feedback he got so that everyone who took time to meet with him, thank you very much.
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Regular Meeting
July 15, 2002
Page 20
The next step will be what his firm refers to as a challenge statement which is sort of, it's a fairly long prose about their take away from those meetings, interviews with everyone about what the Town is and what the challenges of the Town are. The purpose of that is to make sure they have gotten it right as to the type of person we're looking for and the particular skill set that they're going to have to have to come in and take over here. So that will be the next step. They hope to be delivering that within 10 days, and they'll meet with us to go over that and then they'll move onto the actual candidate search at that point.
B. Facilities Subcommittee
Mr. Primini: We will be meeting jointly with the Public Buildings Committee on Wednesday, and we'll discuss that issue about 7:45 p.m. We are starting to meet with architects and (inaudible) but the key thing is to get the committees together so we're not going in different directions. Believe me I appreciate anyone's help from anywhere. I don't want to be reinventing the wheel. If stuff has gone on in the past I'd be happy to know about it, so we don't go back to some old issues.
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