MINUTES<= o:p>
CONSERVA=
TION
COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
CONTINUA=
TION
OF PUBLIC HEARING
JOHN TRU=
MBULL
PRIMARY SCHOOL MEDIA CENTER
THURSDAY,
NOVEMBER 18, 2004 - 7:30 P.M.
APPLICAT=
ION
#505 – GUERNSEYTOWN FARMS, LLC
PRESENT: &nb=
sp; =
&nb=
sp; Bernard Beauchamp
=
&nb=
sp; =
&nb=
sp; Glen
Duplissie
=
&nb=
sp; =
&nb=
sp; Ron
Jones, Secretary
=
&nb=
sp; =
&nb=
sp; Charles
Thermer
=
&nb=
sp; =
&nb=
sp; James
Zawadzki, Chairman
ABSENT: &nbs=
p; &=
nbsp; =
E=
dwin
Undercuffler, Vice Chairman
ALTERNATES PRESENT: &nbs=
p; Martha Sturgis
ALTERNATES ABSENT: =
; <=
/span>Susan Atwood
=
&nb=
sp; =
&nb=
sp; Peter
Peluso
=
OTHERS PRESENT: =
; &n=
bsp; Chuck
Berger, Town Engineer
=
; &n=
bsp; =
; &n=
bsp; =
; Moosa Rafey, Assistant
Wetlands Enforcement Officer
1. =
Call
Meeting To Order
Mr.
Zawadzki, Chairman, called the Public Hearing to order at 7:34 p.m.
2. &nb=
sp; Roll
Call
Mr.
Jones, Secretary, executed the Roll Call.
Mr.
Zawadzki, Chairman, asked Ms. Sturgis to sit in for Mr. Undercuffler, in his
absence.
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
CONTINUATION OF PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #505 – GUERNSEYTOWN FARMS ESTATES, LLC
NOVEMBER 18, 2004
PAGE 2
Mr.
Zawadzki, Chairman, read aloud the Ground Rules for the record, as follows:=
“Rules For Condu=
ct of
Public Hearing
1. =
The
applicant, or his representative will make his formal presentation to the
Commission stating the proposed regulated activities, the wetland impacts, =
and
the alternatives, which were considered by the applicant.
2. =
All
comments, discussions and observations shall be made through the Chair, aft=
er
proper recognition by the Chairman.
This is necessary to ensure that only one person at a time speaks on=
any
issue, thus making it easier for everyone to understand and for clearer, le=
gal
transcription.
3. =
All
persons addressing the Commission shall begin by first clearly stating their
name and address for the record. If
necessary, the person may be asked to spell his name for the record.
4. =
Following
the presentation of the application, the Conservation Commission/Inland
Wetlands Agency will ask specific questions of the applicant.
5. =
After
the Commission has asked its questions of the applicant, I shall then allow=
any
members of the public who wish to speak either in favor of this application=
or
against it, to address the Commission.
6. =
I
shall then allow the applicant to respond to the comments of the members of=
the
general public.
7. =
I shall then allow any members of the general public who wish to
present any additional information or clarifying discussion, to do so.
8. =
I
shall provide an opportunity for the applicant to respond to these addition=
al
remarks if he or his representative so wishes.
9. =
The
Conservation Commission/Inland Wetlands Agency has 35 days from the date th=
at
the Public Hearing commences to complete the Public Hearing. The Commission may ask the applica=
nt for
a 35 day extension of the Public Hearing period if the Commission requires =
any
additional information or wishes to schedule a Site Walk to observe the
situation for themselves.
&=
nbsp; 10. The
Conservation Commission/Inland Wetland Agency has 65 days from the date when
the Public Hearing is Closed to render its decision.”
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
CONTINUATION OF PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #505 – GUERNSEYTOWN FARMS ESTATES, LLC
NOVEMBER 18, 2004
PAGE 3
3. =
Hearing
of Applications
&=
nbsp; A. Continuation
of Public Hearing from October 14, 2004, Application #505 of Guernseytown
Farms, LLC for construction of Guernseytown Farms Estates Phase III, 10-lot
residential subdivision located on Guernseytown Road and Killorin Road,
Watertown.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Recess
or Adjourn Public Hearing must be Closed by November 18, 2004 unless applic=
ant
grants a time extension.
&nbs=
p; &=
nbsp; Franklin
Pilicy, Attorney Representing the Applicant
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Atty. Pilicy: I’d just like to confirm=
that
the record now contains a letter from the Health District dated November 16,
2004. And it tells us that al=
l of
the (inaudible) on site septic and (inaudible).
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Zawadzki: Yea, I think that’s adeq=
uate.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Atty. Pilicy: Mr. Sakonchick I believe is prepare=
d to
go through the comments and responses to the comments (inaudible).
Mr. Sakonchick: Now what we have don=
e is
tried to respond to comments that were made over time by Bob Smith who had =
an
issue with lots 68 and 69, and you might recall we eliminated one of those =
lots
and we received comments from Mr. Berger who asked us to modify certain thi=
ngs
on the plans. Tonight I think=
Moosa
distributed a bunch of comments that I faxed to him and he made copies of.<=
span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'> In addition to that I made copies
directly on the Xerox which copies might be a little bit clearer so I will =
also
distribute those and the Commissioners can decide which one they’re
better able to read with comfort and we’ll go over those comments.
Now these comments req=
uired
a little change to the plans here and a little change to the plans there, a=
nd I
also have with me for the record two full sized sets of plans that we’=
;ll
submit. In addition to that f=
or
each Commissioner, I’m going to try something new tonight and I’=
;ll
be looking for your response to see if it’s a good idea, but other to=
wns
are doing this and they find it very successful, and that is they ask the
applicant to submit several copies of the full size plans, and then copies =
of
the full set of plans on 11 x 17 to each of the Commissioners, and what they
usually find is the 11 x 17 are readable for most of the Commissioners and =
if
there is a particular detail that they’re looking for explanation on =
we
have the big copies on the file, so let me do that right now.
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
CONTINUATION OF PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #505 – GUERNSEYTOWN FARMS ESTATES, LLC
NOVEMBER 18, 2004
PAGE 4
Mr. Rafey: Mr. Chairman, the reas=
on why
Mr. Sakonchick’s report was not in the packet is because I received it
today.
Mr. Zawadzki: =
Yea, I see it’s =
dated
today.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Sakonchick: I’m going to try and go throu=
gh
this and I’m going to ask for a little bit of mercy, I left my reading
glasses at home, so I can see without glasses but I’ll have it awfully
close to my face at times. No=
w as
an executive summary Chuck has a series of comments on those and what we do=
is
we try to respond to the comments in a graphical manner, where he’s
asking us to do something that might modify the plan, we Xerox the area that
was actually modified and take to it his original comment and our response.=
So the first pages are his comment=
list
to us, the next couple of pages is the narrative comment after comment of o=
ur
response, and I would suggest we all flip right through those and get to the
sheet where it has the cover sheet and what we have here is you see these
arrows, and these arrows are where we show the changes that we made to the
plans, so you’ll notice that we created a new sheet SB7 which has to =
do,
we’ll show it to you later, with the water tank, and this is just sho=
wing
that the cover sheet has that change to add that sheet. Also as requested we eliminated fr=
om the
cover sheet alternatives #1, #2, and #3 which Chuck felt was more applicabl=
e to
the first phases than the third phases, a later comment.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Turning
to the next sheet where it talks about lot 64 and 65 on the side of the she=
et
here you’ll see what Chuck’s comments were and the arrows addre=
ss
what the responses are. IR=
17;m
sorry, I stand corrected, you correctly pointed out that mine was missing t=
he sheet,
this is the second sheet. And=
that
just talks about the Phase III area, the simple request so we just pointed =
out
where we added the area, and the reason we do this is you could imagine poor
Chuck and Moosa looking at these huge set of plans, where are the changes?<=
span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'> So this is just, some of these thi=
ngs
may not seem important but they’re good housekeeping things and IR=
17;m
showing them where we made changes by these revisions.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Now
flipping to the next page which should look like this, you see there are
comments #2, #3, and #5 on the side, and paraphrasing a little bit comment =
#2
is talking about many of the footing drains and curtain drains do not disch=
arge
to approved locations and should be relocated or easements provided. #3 a summary of the purpose for the
several drainage utility easement both existing and proposed should be
provided, some of that I’ll do by narrative today.
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
CONTINUATION OF PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #505 – GUERNSEYTOWN FARMS ESTATES, LLC
NOVEMBER 18, 2004
PAGE 5
#5, the proposed limit=
s of
disturbance should be more specific along the existing vegetation and stone
walls along Guernseytown Road, so this comment is going to be repeated on t=
his
few other sheets following this because it shows different parts of the pla=
n,
but this is in the areas of lot #64, the curtain drains have been redirecte=
d to
lot #64 to drain to the pond, and lot #65 an easement for drainage rights in
favor of lot #64 has been added, the limit of disturbance to existing
vegetation, stone walls at the northeast of the property have been marked.<=
span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'> So what we’re trying to do h=
ere is
talk about each one of these little drainage easements and why they’re
needed and Chuck is very meticulous.
He wants an absolute right from every lot to be able to drain downhi=
ll
and we’re trying to meet his desire on these plans.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Flipping
to the next sheet, which should have lots 66 and 67 on the bottom, you̵=
7;ll
see on the side are the same comments 2, 3, and 5 and we’re showing t=
hat
on lot 66 the roof footing and curtain drains have been redirected to have
drainage not run off the property, in other words we want to have an absolu=
te
drainage path to the wetlands. Once
it’s to the wetlands we consider that to be good. The limited disturbance of the exi=
sting
vegetation of stone walls at the northeast and southeast corner of the prop=
erty
have been marked. A footing d=
rain
and outlet pipe have been added to the water tank to ensure no uprising of =
the
tank and a drainage easement has been added to allow for pond overflow to t=
he
wetlands, so this is how we did the housekeeping on lot 66. On lot 67 the roof footing and cur=
tain
drains have been redirected to have the drainage not run off the property.<=
span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'> The limit of disturbance of the ex=
isting
vegetation and stone walls at the southeast corner of the property have been
marked; again housekeeping issues.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Zawadzki: Jim, that comment there about the w=
ater
tank, what does that mean, ensure no uprising of the tank? You mean to pop out of the ground?=
Mr. Sakonchick: Exactly.
Mr. Zawadzki: In the frost?
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Sakonchick: No, it’s amazing the pressur=
es
created by hydrostatic pressure. If
you have a fire and you drain that tank, like a battleship, that tank is go=
ing
to want to float, so as part of the design, you either have to make the tank
very heavy so even if you drain it and you still have a high groundwater ta=
ble
like after a rainstorm is not going to float, or you drain the water around=
the
tank so there’s no reason for it to float. Now what we’ve been able to =
do
here is we weren’t able to drain all the way to the bottom of the tank
which luxury we had in the first phase and in the third phase because we had
that steep hill that gave us a place to discharge to.
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
CONTINUATION OF PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #505 – GUERNSEYTOWN FARMS ESTATES, LLC
NOVEMBER 18, 2004
PAGE 6
Here we were able to d=
rain
to the midpoint of the tank and that was sufficient to prevent any floatati=
on
of the tank if it’s built to this, to the dimensions we show. This doesn’t really happen
often. We do septic tanks all=
over
the world here and I don’t even bother with this, but being a municip=
al
project, we’re being very careful to address these types of concerns.=
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Turning
to the next page where it talks about what we did on lot 68, and the comment
there is the roof, footing and curtain drains have been redirected, have the
drainage run to the swale along the street line. The limits of disturbance to exist=
ing
vegetation and stone walls at the driveway and pipe crossing the stone wall
have been marked. The septic =
tank
has been relocated 25 feet from the curtain drain and label water type. The grades for the cover over the =
tank
have been carried to the new tank location. This is also addressing some of the
requests of Bob Smith as well as Chuck’s comments.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Going
to the next page where we’re talking about lot 69 and you might recal=
l we
used to call that lot 70, but it’s now 69.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Rafey: 68 is a combined lot, 68 and 6=
9.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Sakonchick: Lot 69 Chuck brought up a poin=
t. If you look at the wetlands line, o=
ur
soil scientist went out in the field and he located and wetlands that were =
on
our property. And then he loc=
ated
any wetlands were on the neighbor’s property where he thought it was =
kind
of close, but Chuck mentioned the fact that we’re not really showing =
how
far away that wetlands line went, and I said well Chuck, what do we care?
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Going
to the next sheet that looks like a lot of details, and what we’ve do=
ne
here, this is relative to his comments 11 and 12 where he talks about the
sediment and erosion control thing and reference to public road and road
construction should be deleted, so housekeeping things. These have been marked to reflect =
those
changes as indicated.
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
CONTINUATION OF PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #505 – GUERNSEYTOWN FARMS ESTATES, LLC
NOVEMBER 18, 2004
PAGE 7
Also you will see a cl=
oud
around the upper corner over here, and that is simply to state that some of=
the
things we’ve shown to you on sheets G2 to G5, S2 to S5, two sheets mi=
ght
show similar information. Rat=
her
than repeat it we’re just in this cloud indicating that whatever chan=
ge was
done to G2, a corresponding reflection of that change is also on S2, so
that’s just being consistent.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Now
if I might go to the next sheet, Sheet SB7, this is the new sheet that was
created, if you remember I mentioned it on the cover sheet, and this goes i=
nto
construction details for that proposed 10,000 holding tank and also showing=
how
we’re draining that where we can and where that drain goes to.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; If
I might go now where we, each one of the things I’ve shown so far ref=
lect
comments where graphically I’ve been able to create an answer for
it. We’re now going to =
talk
about some of the comments he made where there’s not a graphical answ=
er
to it, and we’ll read the comment and then I’ll discuss our
response for that comment. #4=
, no
information is provided regarding the adequacy of the existing drainage swa=
les
along both Killorin and Guernseytown Road.=
Profiles should be provided along the swales. The adequacy of the existing town
drainage system to accept this drainage should be evaluated. In open area in an 18 inch driveway
crossing leads to an existing 12 inch corrugated concrete pipe. I’m guessing what CCP means.=
Sheet SB3 contains a note drain to
drain, a formal swale should be considered. To be discussed with town staff, a=
nd
here’s how I would like to respond to that. Killorin Road is an easy response =
cause
where we have frontage on Killorin Road there is existing bituminous curves=
and
the water is well contained in the paved section of the road. Where Guernseytown Road exists alo=
ng our
frontage there are existing swales and existing driveway crossings where
driveways exist that were constructed over time by the Town of Watertown an=
d as
shown on these sheets wherever we have a driveway being created along those
swales we have surveyed it and have created dedicated sheets at a 20 scale
which is much larger than the other scales. We normally work with 40 scale, 20=
scale
showing exactly how that driveway can be built, where the flared ends would=
be,
where the pipe would be, and how it would match the existing grades. And we also size the storm drainag=
e for
a 25 year storm. Now to size =
for a
25 year storm we, as engineers, have to make assumptions. We have to use our engineering jud=
gment
on how much water is going to soak into the ground and how much water is go=
ing
to flow off and how fast it will flow off.=
Being engineers we make conservative assumptions, we make sure it wo=
rks
because it’s very expensive to replace in the future. And by our calculations most of the
pipes can be 15 inch, but when installing pipe, whether it should be 15 or =
18
inch, the installation cost is very little if you upgrade between those two
sizes, so we erred on the side of being conservative, we’re showing s=
ome
18 inch pipes.
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
CONTINUATION OF PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #505 – GUERNSEYTOWN FARMS ESTATES, LLC
NOVEMBER 18, 2004
PAGE 8
Now this should be com=
pared
to existing pipes installed by the Town of Watertown in the past along this
road. At that time the Town
Engineer chose to put in 12 inch pipes.&nb=
sp;
Now that could reflect the fact that he did less conservative
calculations and determined that the 12 inch pipe was adequate, or it could=
be
as simple as he just had a standard that he put 12 inch and they put 12 inch
in. Now talking with Mr. Cala=
brese,
clearly an interested party, he said that those 12 inch pipes have function=
ed
as being adequate in size over time.
I suggested to Mr. Berger that he might have other people in Town to=
see
if those pipes have been adequate.
I certainly would hate to suggest replacing those pipes because they
very well might be more than adequate for the situation and we’re
comparing, if you’re doing something new it’s easy to upgrade t=
he
size a little bit, it doesn’t cost much, but to take something out and
replace it, it’s an onerous cost.&nb=
sp;
The only known problem near the Guernseytown Road and Killorin Road
intersection that I could mention to me is where the two roads intersect.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Zawadzki: Well I guess the question there wou=
ld be
is what you’re doing upstream affecting how the water hits that corne=
r?
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Sakonchick: No, we do not affect that corner
whatsoever because our lots over here we are designing our water to drain
within our property, that’s why we’re talking about all these
putting in curtain rains and everything and where they’re going to dr=
ain
to. And the Commission might =
recall
from the field walk that Killorin Road was relatively high compared to
Joe’s property which kind of dropped off so no, we will not make that
situation worse. If I might
interrupt, I know Chuck has a lot of things and we just talked about this
recently, have you had a chance to talk to anybody about the condition of
Killorin?
&=
nbsp; Mr. Berger: No, I have not.
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
CONTINUATION OF PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #505 – GUERNSEYTOWN FARMS ESTATES, LLC
NOVEMBER 18, 2004
PAGE 9
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Sakonchick: Another important thing I̵=
7;d
like to point out is, and Chuck also mentioned to me that he’s going =
to
be talking with the applicant about making sure that Killorin Road along his
frontage is 24 feet wide. At =
some
places now it might be 21.5 feet wide, maybe 23.5 feet wide, I don’t =
know
the exact numbers, but there certainly are some areas that are not 24 and I
think Joe Calabrese in the past has measured it. If he was to make them 24 feet wid=
e, we
don’t really think it’s going to negatively affect the swales
because right now the water goes to the edge of pavement and then goes down=
to
the swale, and if we add 1 or 2 feet along the same contour our first
impression is that will not affect the drainage along Killorin Road, but I
think Chuck mentioned to me that he didn’t really think that was a
wetlands issue cause there are no wetlands anywhere near that frontage,
it’s more of a Planning and Zoning issue, and I kind of agree with th=
em
on that point. I think these are technical details that I will be happy to =
work
out with him prior to the Planning and Zoning Commission, however, all that
stuff we’re talking about is well well beyond the buffer and as
we’ll talk about later, we’ve done things to prevent increase in
runoff so certainly whatever we do there will not have wetlands impacts.
Ms. Sturgis: <=
/b>Here are these 18 inch=
pipes
carrying water and somebody else has 12 inch pipes carrying water, so the 18
inch can carry more water at a greater force. Is there a conflict in doing that?=
(Tape #1, Side A ended – may=
have
missed some.)
&nbs=
p; &=
nbsp; Mr.
Sakonchick: The answer is no, but
I’m trying to think of a way to make that easy to comprehend. We’re all in places of public
assembly, like a restaurant, and if this was a store, and when I’m
designing that exit door, I have to assume that this is Macy’s
Thanksgiving Day, it’s packed, and if there is a fire everybody has to
leave that door all the time, they designed a number of doors based on that,
however the reality is stores are never that crowded, most of the time you =
wind
up going through only one door, you don’t even need the second door.<=
span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'> I think there’s some validit=
y to a
comparison there. I believe t=
he
actual water coming here has been handled by the one door, by the one 12 in=
ch
pipe, and even though we are putting in bigger pipes, we’re putting i=
n 2
doors, it’s easy to do when you’re building the building, so
that’s how I’m looking at it.
&=
nbsp; =
; Ms.
Sturgis: They’ll ne=
ver
actually use that full 18 inches.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Sakonchick: They’ll=
never
use that full 18 inches, I’m pretty confident.
&nbs=
p; &=
nbsp; Ms.
Sturgis: I have another question
about this holding tank, how do you get the water in there for the fire?
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
CONTINUATION OF PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #505 – GUERNSEYTOWN FARMS ESTATES, LLC
NOVEMBER 18, 2004
PAGE 10
&nbs=
p; &=
nbsp; Mr.
Sakonchick: Trucks drive up and . =
. . .
.
&=
nbsp; =
; Ms.
Sturgis: Fill it like a
swimming pool or something?
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Sakonchick: Yes.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Duplissie: This water dra=
inage,
though, is designed on a 25 year storm?
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Sakonchick: Yes.
&nbs=
p; &=
nbsp; Mr.
Duplissie: Is that adequate or sh=
ould
this drainage be designed, I mean this is drainage with houses now, and dri=
veways
and everybody else, is 25 year adequate?
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Berger: I have not seen t=
he
drainage analysis of the swale and the driveway crossings that lead to the =
12
inch town pipe.
&nbs=
p; &=
nbsp; Mr.
Duplissie: 25 year is the design
standard?
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Sakonchick: It is. I might add that Watertown is ahea=
d of
the curve for choosing the 25 year.
The Department of Transportation, that builds most of the significant
roads in the State, design on a 10 year storm. The next sheet, I did suggest we s=
hift
sheets, and all that’s saying, as Chuck is saying, let’s take
alternatives 1, 2, and 3 and other alternatives should be in the record, an=
d I
believe in the previous part of this Public Hearing we did discuss how we d=
id
look at alternatives different from 1, 2, ad 3. That was that proposed road and ho=
w the
proposed road in Phase 3 did not make sense. I think in that part we did discus=
s it
and reject it for obvious impact reasons.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Polletta: I just want to =
go
back to this, I was looking at this myself. The corner of Guernseytown and Kil=
lorin
Road, you said there was some drainage problem there. You don’t own the property o=
n the
corner over there?
&nbs=
p; &=
nbsp; Mr.
Sakonchick: That is correct.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Polletta: But now if ther=
e is a
problem over there, who will be responsible for that? Why was addressed (inaudible) a pr=
oblem?
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
CONTINUATION OF PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #505 – GUERNSEYTOWN FARMS ESTATES, LLC
NOVEMBER 18, 2004
PAGE 11
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Sakonchick: I think that =
if you
went to Public Works, they probably have a list of problem areas in Town
that’s quite long. Now =
as
problems go I don’t think this is close to the top of their list, but=
if
we were talking about the current design standards, that Chuck and I were j=
ust
talking about, the 25 year storm, that corner doesn’t make it, but it
probably does pretty good for your typical storm, and it would probably be a
rare event that it does have some issues.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Polletta: If somebody, ma=
ybe my
engineer (inaudible) do you feel that somebody should repair this prior to
these lots going in, or is it something that’s existing and leave it
alone?
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Berger: That’s a
difficult question to answer. If
there is a problem there it should be fixed. Who’s responsibility it is w=
hen it
comes to requiring developers to do off site improvements that aren’t=
a
part of their project, that’s a very difficult legal question that the
Town would have to be very careful about requiring off site improvements.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Polletta: I understand th=
at.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Berger: If the developer =
agrees
to do it, then that’s great.
Are we going to require it?
I don’t know, I’m not that familiar with exactly what the
problem is. Again it sort of =
gets
back to there hasn’t been a good analysis of really in my mind of
what’s going on out there along the drainage swales.
&nbs=
p; &=
nbsp; Mr.
Duplissie: So when we approve thi=
s,
whatever is draining from these 2 lots that are now going onto somebody
else’s lot, that somebody else inherits the situation from the uphill=
or
the uphill situation is draining across their property and if it floods the=
ir
property they can’t come to you and say yea but his water is coming d=
own
onto my property and causing the problem, flooding the road and flooding my
property. There is nothing we=
can
do.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Berger: We shouldn’t be approving
anything that increases flooding on anybody’s property unless there i=
s a
drainage easement. If it̵=
7;s an
existing condition, then I guess there’s a limit to how much we can go
back and fix past mistakes, oversights, unforeseen conditions. We try to do that wherever we can,=
and
where it’s clearly a Town responsibility versus developer we try to d=
o it
so that when the project is completed everything that we still don’t =
have
a puddle in the middle of the road that might have been a Town responsibili=
ty,
but I can’t guarantee that we would do that if it was a Town
responsibility.
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
CONTINUATION OF PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #505 – GUERNSEYTOWN FARMS ESTATES, LLC
NOVEMBER 18, 2004
PAGE 12
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Duplissie: But what’s happening now=
is
that they’re not increasing any of this water that’s going down
this current swale, cause they’re taking care of their own runoff, th=
ey
have roof rains, it should be zero, correct increase to the drainage swales=
?
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Sakonchick: That’s =
how I
tried to design it, yes.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Duplissie: Okay, so they’re not
technically increasing any water runoff down that swale by putting in these
lots.
Mr. Berger: There’s a fine l=
ine,
there could be a slight increased.
We’re adding driveways that are going to drain. Granted the majority of the draina=
ge
from the lots that frontage out on Guernseytown drain to the back, towards =
the
wetland area, but there is a percentage of those lots, including the new
driveway, that is going to drain out towards the swales.
&= nbsp; = ; Mr. Duplissie: That drains ou= t onto the road and then goes to the catch basin which goes back into the swales?<= o:p>
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Berger: Correct.
Mr. Duplissie: And we don’t kno=
w yet
if that’s an increase or a decrease?
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Berger: I don’=
;t
know. I mean on the plans the=
re are
some 15 inch pipes proposed underneath the driveways and then we get down l=
ower
on the hillside and we come to an 18 inch pipe and the next thing we come t=
o is
an existing 12 inch pipe that the Town put in, so I’m, well wait a
minute, I’m taking a step back and saying we need to know what’s
going on here. If you’re
proposing 15 inch pipes leading to an 18 inch pipe leading to an existing T=
own
12 inch pipe, we need to analyze what’s going on there to make sure
everything is adequate and working properly, cause there is a slight increa=
se
due to the driveways being added along the frontage there.
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
CONTINUATION OF PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #505 – GUERNSEYTOWN FARMS ESTATES, LLC
NOVEMBER 18, 2004
PAGE 13
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Sakonchick: And everything Chuck has just
mentioned I’m more than happy to meet his requirements on. The concept I agree with. He and I will certainly have to wo=
rk out
the fine points of the interpretation.&nbs=
p;
Also no matter what water is going to the intersection of Killorin a=
nd
Guernseytown Road, that water comes come to our property and we’re mo=
re
than happy to accept it. We s=
ized
our storm pipes to accept it. I
think the only issue at that corner, as the water comes down Killorin Road =
and
others might correct me, but it’s my impression that it has trouble
taking the bend, and it sweeps out into the road a little bit further than
might be comfortable, and then once it takes the bend it kind of reorients
itself along the edge there and goes down the edge.
Mr. Berger: Which in my mind, and
correct me if you think I’m wrong on this, that’s sort of a
separate problem from the driveway crossing drainage swale issue that
I’ve been expressing concerns.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Sakonchick: Absolutely a separate problem,=
I
just brought it up because I was in the neighborhood.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Duplissie: Is that corner=
lot
an actual building lot?
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Sakonchick: Yes, it was built up I think t=
he
last couple of years.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Duplissie: There is a hou=
se on
that corner?
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Sakonchick: Yes. I think that was an excellent ques=
tion
because it’s really going to be related to what we’re going to =
talk
about on the next page over here.
And bear with me cause it might take a little bit of explanation to =
get
to my punch line on this one but let me read the comment and then talk about
conversations I had with Chuck about it and give you my thoughts on it..
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
CONTINUATION OF PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #505 – GUERNSEYTOWN FARMS ESTATES, LLC
NOVEMBER 18, 2004
PAGE 14
Given the large wetland
system that separates Phase II and III, I would recommend the analysis be d=
one
above Judd Pond utilizing the dam as a potential design point. The changes identified in Items 1
through 3 above for the various frequency storms identified should be routed
through the wetlands and Judd Pond, I would recommend a computerized hydrol=
ogic
program such as TR55 or TR20 be utilized for this effort, concise summary t=
able
should be provided. That̵=
7;s a
long involved statement. I
fortunately had a chance to talk to Chuck and he kind of indicated to me wh=
ere
he was coming from and on the plans that I just gave (inaudible) on sheet G=
3,
now what I just pointed to is a shallow storm water detention structure that
we’re showing on this property.
Basically what we’re creating is a small depression and
we’re going to allow our storm water to fill there during a storm, and
then drain shortly after the storm.
It’s in the back of the lot that contains the existing house a=
nd
if you compare it to the size of one of the houses that we show on these pl=
ans,
it’s bigger than a house, so it’s a big area, but it’s
relatively shallow. It’s
about 24 inches deep before it’s full.
Now we did that becaus=
e your
regulations have very stringent storm drainage controls. By our calculations, even though w=
hen we
develop Section II we’re diverting water away from this side, by
following strict interpretation of your requirements for a 100 year storm, =
not
to increase the water going off the site, we calculated we need this, and y=
ou
know what? As an engineer,
it’s not necessary and I think Chuck suspected that too because he ha=
s an
engineering nose also and I think he felt this doesn’t feel right,
let’s look at something like the discharge point for Judd Brook and s=
ee
whether or not your development actually does increase the runoff coming
off. And what I did for my an=
alysis
is I took the 100 year storms. If I
can solve the problem for a 100 year storm, the other storms fall in line, =
and
in the 100 year storm, I know how much impervious area I’m creating, I
know how much rain happens in 24 hours in a 100 year storm, I can calculate=
a
volume of water that’s going to be running off. I compare that volume to the volum=
e that
existed before that development started, I get a difference. I adjust that for the portion of t=
he
water shed that we diverted. =
I came
up short. I came up short by =
the
exact size of this little structure right over here. If I’m going to meet the let=
ter of
your requirements, I need this little structure. Now I think I would agree, if you =
know
how big Judd Pond is, if you know how many acres of wetlands we have on our
property before it gets to Judd Pond, if you were to take this little batht=
ub
of water and spread it out over the surface of Judd Pond, you’re prob=
ably
only increasing Judd Pond by a small fraction, but if you do increase Judd =
Pond
by a small fraction, more water can be calculated coming over the
spillway. Is it a significant
percentage? No. It’s a trivial percentage, b=
ut I
did the calculations to meet the letter of there requirements of your
regulations, you might consider kind of&nb=
sp;
a waiver on this little thing right over here.
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
CONTINUATION OF PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #505 – GUERNSEYTOWN FARMS ESTATES, LLC
NOVEMBER 18, 2004
PAGE 15
I know Chuck wanted me=
to do
the analysis to see if I could show there would not be an increase, and I h=
ave
to say yea, you could calculate some increase, but it’s trivial, so
that’s how I stand with that so my drainage computations do address it
from that volume analysis, we take care of the volume analysis for the 100 =
year
storms, so I would like to have those drainage computations stand on that p=
oint
and ask the Commission to either approve it with this structure as shown, o=
r if
staff says this is really silly, you can certainly have the option of saying
remove it. That’s how I=
see
it.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Polletta: How big is this
structure in square feet? You=
said
it’s about 24 inches deep?
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Sakonchick: Yes. It’s about, it’s an ed=
ucated
eyeball here, it’s about 40 feet wide (inaudible), it’s probably
about 40 feet by 120 feet. I
don’t have the scale with me right now.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Polletta: What is the spe=
cs on
this? What is the base?
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Sakonchick: If you drove by this after
it’s built, it’s going to just look like, if the people cut it =
as
lawn it will look like a depressed lawn.&n=
bsp;
If they let it grow with trees, it will be just a little depression =
with
trees growing it of it. It=
217;s
going to be just natural vegetation.
In fact things like this exist in nature right now and we walk around
them or through them.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Polletta: But then there =
is an
outlet coming out of here, right?
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Sakonchick: There is an outlet and the out=
let
has got a constricted size so that it drains slowly, but it will drain.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Polletta: I’ve got =
glasses
on and I can’t see it. =
Where
is the drainage?
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Duplissie: So you’re
saying that this will hold about 100,000 gallons of water and hold it there
temporarily?
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Polletta: 10,000.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Jones: I figured 9,600; i=
s that
right?
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Duplissie: 40 x 150 is 6,=
000.
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
CONTINUATION OF PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #505 – GUERNSEYTOWN FARMS ESTATES, LLC
NOVEMBER 18, 2004
PAGE 16
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Sakonchick: I’ll check the calculati=
on, I
believe I designed it to hold 12,000 cubic feet.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Duplissie: Correct,
that’s 100,000 gallons.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Sakonchick: I was just summarizing of the
Commission and I have them oriented on the full size sheet, and you can see=
on
the full size sheet where the pond is, where the outlet pipe leaves the pond
and you can see where the pipe ends more than 75 feet away from the wetland=
s,
so all of this activity is beyond your wetlands buffer. It’s an uplands drainage act=
ivity
and it’s shown there for the purposes I just described.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Duplissie: Is there anyth=
ing to
slow this water down? The wat=
er
drains into this, this is calculate for a 100 year storm, so this is going =
to
go in, and then it’s going to drain, as it’s going in, through =
a 12
inch RCP, so there’s nothing to stop it (inaudible).
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Sakonchick: Well before that water goes in=
to the
12 inch RCP it has to be absorbed through a stone bed, so the water has to =
go
through the stone bed and then into the holes of the side of the pipe, and =
then
it leaves the pipe. The pipe =
is a
big size, in case it ever has to be cleaned, you can get somebody from one =
end
with a roto rooter if you had to, but how fast the water gets into this pip=
e is
where we restrict it and we make it so it enters that pipe very slowly.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Duplissie: So it’s =
not
gushing through a 12 inch pipe?
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Sakonchick: Absolutely not.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Duplissie: Hydrologic pre=
ssure
of 100,000 gallons trying to flow out through a 23 inch . . . . .
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Sakonchick: It’s purposely designed =
to
prevent that problem from happening.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Polletta: It’s cros=
sing
this guy’s driveway over here?
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
CONTINUATION OF PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #505 – GUERNSEYTOWN FARMS ESTATES, LLC
NOVEMBER 18, 2004
PAGE 17
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Sakonchick: There’s easements. Now that is the summary of my
presentation and you’ll note that most of the things, and almost with=
out
exception, the things we talked about tonight, are all activities we’=
re
doing in uplands areas, that eventually will drain to the wetlands but
(inaudible) how we’re doing it in the uplands, and I’d like the
Commission to consider whether or not sufficient information is now in your
hands so you can make a decision at least on how we impact the wetlands,
knowing that we will continue to work with Planning and Zoning to make sure=
we
meet every letter of their requirements, which I think I have done, and
certainly Chuck has good opinions and Moosa and Mary have good opinions and=
we
will modify our plans as necessary to meet their opinions, and I don’t
expect anything they’re going to ask for is going to have impacts on =
the
wetlands or wetlands buffer. =
In the
remote chance something like that ever did come about we’d have to co=
me
back for a wetlands modification, but I think we might have information that
substantially covers many aspects of the things you’re concerned with=
.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Zawadzki: Any questions?
&=
nbsp; =
; Jos=
eph
Calabrese, Applicant
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Calabrese: I’d like to address the
drainage along Guernseytown Road. A
few years back the Town came through after Killorin Road was constructed and
they started from the 12 inch pipe down by the pond and redug that whole sw=
ale
and made it as deep as they thought was necessary and that swale accepts the
water, because I live there and I see it every time it rains. What happened above, it just happe=
ned to
flow down the road then it will go into the swale in front of my property, =
so
the swale does accept it and it works fine. As far as the 18 inch pipe, I beli=
eve
that’s my house. When I=
built
my house I just put a bigger pipe just to put a bigger pipe. The 12 inch pipe was in the old
farmhouse. That was existing
forever and the water does flow through there fine. And below, the Town put in those p=
ipes,
they designed it for the flow of the area for that whole area, so the swales
that are existing at this point are sufficient and I just wanted to bring t=
hat
to everybody’s attention because I watch it, I see it all the time, a=
nd
the Town did it, they did it to what they figured what was sufficient, and =
it
is sufficient, except for where it comes around up there, and all it does i=
s go
on the middle of the road and flows to the sides, both sides, my side and t=
he
other side, so then it does go into the swales, and this is 2 lots away fro=
m my
property so I just wanted to bring that to everybody’s attention.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Zawadzki: So as far as
you’re concerned, there is not a problem there?
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
CONTINUATION OF PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #505 – GUERNSEYTOWN FARMS ESTATES, LLC
NOVEMBER 18, 2004
PAGE 18
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Calabrese: No, there really isn’t.<=
span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'> I mean I watch it all the time, but
again the Town just came through there 2 years back, after Killorin Road was
constructed and redug it and made it as large as they thought was necessary=
and
they put the sales in there and the grass, etc. Actually if you go look there, in =
front
of most of the property it’s deeper than normal cause they made it
deeper. And another problem,
you’re limited to how much you can do there because you had trees and=
the
water and you had all those nice trees along there, and if you dig anymore,=
in
fact some of them they did uncover some of the roots. Thank God it didn’t kill the
trees, like in front of my house there’s all beautiful tress along th=
ere,
along the whole property, I mean there are some dead trees, but if you do f=
ool
around with that swale, you’re going to affect those trees and
that’s something that I would complain about living here and owning t=
he
property, but as I said, it was addressed by the Town and they did do a good
job and if you watch the rainstorms, you’ll see that it does take the
water, and it all gets piped down below, you never have a problem with that,
you know for the 12 inch pipe, it still accepts it. Again like I said, the 18 inch pip=
e I
just put in because it was my house, I put in an 18 inch pipe, so that̵=
7;s
that.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Duplissie: Chuck, when th=
ey dug
that swale, do you know if it was just the Town crew going out to dig the
swale, or were there calculations dug and that’s why they put in a 12
inch?
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Berger: I don’t know.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Duplissie: And this 12 in=
ch
pipe that we’re talking about, anybody know what the length is?
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Berger: Not off the top of my head.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Calabrese: I know where it
is. It ends on this . . . . .=
the 2
lots that we combined, well where my daughter lives, it ends right on her
boundary line, that’s where that pipe ends. The swale starts on lot 68 up thro=
ugh my
house up to the other lots and then it goes into the brook.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Duplissie: We don’t=
know
how long it is, Joe?
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Calabrese: I’d say it’s about=
200
feet.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Duplissie: So replacing i=
t is
not a cheap ordeal.
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
CONTINUATION OF PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #505 – GUERNSEYTOWN FARMS ESTATES, LLC
NOVEMBER 18, 2004
PAGE 19
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Calabrese: No, but there’s (inaudib=
le)
also and that’s been there forever, and then you have another pipe wh=
ich
they just installed across the street.&nbs=
p;
But I’m sure when the Town did it, they didn’t do it by =
eye,
they did it by calculations. =
I mean
the Town Engineer had to do it by calculations.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Duplissie: We don’t=
know
when this was done?
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Calabrese: Yes, I’m going to say ma=
ybe 6
or 7 years ago.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Berger: I can look in the=
file
and see if there is supporting calculations for the project.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Duplissie: That’s
probably the easiest thing to do, right? See what they had at the time?
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Berger: Yes.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Zawadzki: Any other quest=
ions
by the Commission members? If=
not
at this time I’d like to ask anyone from the public that has comments=
on
the presentation to speak now.
Okay. At this point, C=
huck,
how do you feel about, I have a problem with this information on the eve of=
the
meeting because we raised these questions prior to the meeting and then the
stuff comes in here on the night of the meeting and we go through it and we
don’t have a lot of time to digest it. I don’t know how you feel ab=
out
that Chuck? If we Close the H=
earing
at this time we can’t accept any additional information. I don’t know whether we’=
;re
there yet. How do you feel ab=
out
that?
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Berger: I have not had an opportunity =
to
review, other than Jim’s presentation here tonight. If you have in front of you my Nov=
ember
9th memo (Tape #1, Side B ended – may have missed some).
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Zawadzki: Well I think
that’s important because we’re obliged to minimize the impact of
storm water runoff, so anybody else have any comments?
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Jones: Charlie, your comment the
application has not satisfactorily analyzed the potential changes to the
watershed hydrology due to this development. Is that what were talking about th=
en?
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Berger: Correct.
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
CONTINUATION OF PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #505 – GUERNSEYTOWN FARMS ESTATES, LLC
NOVEMBER 18, 2004
PAGE 20
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Ms. Sturgis: He asked if we could waiver th=
at
depressed area that holds 100,000 gallons of water. Do you agree that that should be w=
aived
or is that something you want to consider?
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Berger: I would consider =
it
with an analysis that demonstrates what is the impact to the wetland area d=
ue
to the development. We’=
ve
talked about it being a minor impact, but we never put an analysis or a num=
ber
to it. And if it is true that
it’s a minor impact that is close to zero, I would say that that is t=
he
way we ought to go.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Jones: But you don’t know that =
yet.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Berger: We don’t kn=
ow
that.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Jones: You won’t know that unle=
ss he
gives you those counts?
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Berger: Correct.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Zawadzki: Anything else? Okay on that basis I’d like =
to ask
for a 35 day extension on the Public Hearing.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Calabrese: Agreed.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Duplissie: And you think =
you
can get the information you need into the next 35 days between the two of y=
ou
and he can supply you with what you need so we can make a decision?
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Berger: We have a meeting scheduled for
Tuesday morning.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Zawadzki: Okay, then at t=
his
point we’re going to recess the Public Hearing at this time and conti=
nue
it at our next meeting.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; MOTION: (Mr.
Polletta, sec. Mr. Duplissie) to Recess the Public Hearing Open for App. #5=
05
of Guernseytown Farms, LLC for construction of Guernseytown Farms Estates,
Phase III, 10-lot residential subdivisions located on Guernseytown Road and
Killorin Road, Watertown.
Discussi=
on: =
; None
MOTION P=
ASSED
UNANIMOUSLY
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
CONTINUATION OF PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #505 – GUERNSEYTOWN FARMS ESTATES, LLC
NOVEMBER 18, 2004
PAGE 21
&nbs=
p; Public
Hearing Recessed at 8:40 p.m.
&nbs=
p; Mr.
Zawadzki, Chairman, called a 10 minute Recess at 8:40 p.m.
Respect=
fully
submitted,
Ronald =
Jones,
Secretary
Conserv=
ation
Commission/
&nbs=
p; _________________=
_________________
&nbs=
p; Lynn
M. LaForme, Minutes Secretary