MINUTES
CONSERVA=
TION
COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
PUBLIC H=
EARING
THURSDAY=
, JUNE
9, 2005 - 7:30 P.M.
APPLICAT=
ION
#526 – P & A ENTERPRISES, LLC
PRESENT: &n=
bsp; =
; &n=
bsp; Bernard Beauchamp
=
; &n=
bsp; =
; =
G=
len
Duplissie
=
&nb=
sp; =
&nb=
sp; Ron
Jones, Secretary
=
; &n=
bsp; =
; &n=
bsp; =
; Joseph Polletta (Out o=
f the
Room)
=
&nb=
sp; =
&nb=
sp; Charles
Thermer
=
=
;
=
&nb=
sp; =
&nb=
sp; James
Zawadzki, Chairman
ABSENT: &nbs=
p; &=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; &=
nbsp; None
ALTERNATES PRESENT: &nbs=
p; Martha Sturgis
ALTERNATES ABSENT: =
; <=
/span>Peter Peluso
=
&nb=
sp; =
&nb=
sp; Denise
Russ
OTHERS PRESENT:=
=
M=
ary
Barton, Zoning Enforcement Officer
=
&nb=
sp; =
&nb=
sp; Chuck
Berger, Town Engineer
=
; &n=
bsp; =
; &n=
bsp; =
; Moosa Rafey, Assistant
Wetlands Enforcement Officer
1. =
Call
Meeting To Order
Mr.
Zawadzki, Chairman, called the Public Hearing to order at 9:12 p.m.
2. &nb=
sp; Roll
Call
Mr.
Jones, Secretary, executed the Roll Call.
Mr.
Zawadzki, Chairman, asked Ms. Sturgis to sit in for Mr. Polletta, in his
absence (he was out of the room).
MR. POLLETTA WAS OUT OF THE ROOM
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #526 – P & A ENTERPRISES, LLC
JUNE 9, 2005
PAGE 2
Mr.
Jones, Secretary, read aloud the Legal Notice for the record as follows:
The
Conservation Commission/Inland Wetland Agency of the Town of
Application
#526 of P & A Enterprises, LLC to conduct the following regulated
activities involved in the construction of proposed Stanley Heights 3-lot
residential subdivision and construction of approximately 200 linear feet of
new roadways located on the southwesterly corner of Winthrop Street Extensi=
on
and Ripley Street, Oakville, CT in an R-12.5 Residential Zoning District.
1.&n= bsp; Disturbance of 3,900 sq. ft. of the 5 foot wetland setback area by construction of a detention pond within regulated area.
<=
span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt'>2. Discharge of storm run=
off
from the detention pond into an inland wetland.
<=
span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt'>3. Installation of erosio=
n and
sediment control measures within the regulated areas.
At this Hearing intere=
sted
persons may be heard and written communications received. A copy of the application is on fi=
le at
the Planning and Zoning Office,
Da=
ted at
Da=
ted at
Ron Jones, Secretary
Conservation
Commission/Inland Wetlands Agency”
3. =
Hearing
of Applications
&= nbsp; B. = Application #526 of P & A Enterprises, LLC for construction of 3-lot residential subdivision Ripley Street and Winthrop Street, Oakville, CT.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Recess
or Adjourn Public Hearing must be Closed by July=
14,
2005 unless applicant grants a time extension.
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #526 – P & A ENTERPRISES, LLC
JUNE 9, 2005
PAGE 3
&nbs=
p; &=
nbsp; Terry
Meyers, Professional Engineer & Land Surveyor
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Meyers: I’m here representing P =
&
A Enterprises. The property i=
s located
at the intersection of Winthrop and
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; We
have 3 single family homes proposed.
This existing, which was an existing parcel at the corner of
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; had a fi=
eld walk
and I think we staked pretty much everything that was proposed for the
property. We have no grading =
within
the setback area for the lots, only grading within the setback for the dete=
ntion
pond and this was a low spot, you can see where it was staked in the
field. I did look and talked =
to our
soil environmental scientist about putting the pond over here, that was a
suggestion from one of the members of the Commission, but if we do that the=
n we
would have to not only excavate in here but also berm up around the sides in
order to create the depth that we would need for the detention pond, and I
think that would create more disturbance adjacent to the wetland area than =
what
we presently have so I did look at that, but I felt that we were further aw=
ay
and closer to the road for maintenance purposes that it would be easier for=
the
Town to maintain if it’s close to the road, the Town crews aren’=
;t
going to go down here, I don’t think. That was the other option.
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #526 – P & A ENTERPRISES, LLC
JUNE 9, 2005
PAGE 4
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; I
wrote some notes about feasible and prudent alternatives. We thought that this was the most
feasible and prudent alternative for a number of reasons. First of all this road is already a
paper street, it’s our only means of access to the property,
we’re expanding the paper street with a hammerhead. We looked at putting a cul de sac =
here,
but then we would disturb more area and create more impervious area by crea=
ting
a cul de sac, and in other situations in Town where we’ve only had 3 =
or 4
lots on the end of the street, the Planning Commission has made the suggest=
ion
that we do a hammerhead rather than a cul de sac with three times as much
pavement, and the idea is to keep the amount of impervious area down as muc=
h as
possible on any of the subdivisions we do.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; As
I stated earlier we really are not disturbing any of the wetlands soil with=
in
the property and I think I made a suggestion that perhaps we could create a
conservation easement through here if the Commission so desires. I spoke to Mr. Berger prior to the
meeting this evening and he has not reviewed the drainage yet, so I would
assume that this Hearing would be continued until the next regular schedule=
d meeting. We have our soil erosion and sedim=
ent
controls on the plan, there’s a separate plan of that, which includes=
the
details and that kind of stuff. And
with respect to our sanitary it would come through this way, and water would
come through
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Zawadzki: As of the time that we got our
information from Moosa, he hadn’t received any wetland impact informa=
tion
or the, basically you just gave us the thing on alternatives and so forth, =
but part
of the requirement was to have a wetland impact report. Have we got that?
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Rafey: What they mean is I received a soil
scientist report form Dave Lord. If you can ask him to evaluate the wetlands and see if this
development has any impact on the wetlands. Just one parag=
raph or
two.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr.
Meyers: He wasn’t
available to come to the meeting tonight.
&= nbsp; &nbs= p; Mr. Rafey: Just describe the = soil types, he didn’t mention anything about the wetl= ands or what the impact was on the wetlands, if any.
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #526 – P & A ENTERPRISES, LLC
JUNE 9, 2005
PAGE 5
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr.
Meyers: We tried not to i=
mpact
the wetlands, that was the purpose of putting
everything where we did.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr.
Rafey: If he can write
something to that.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr.
Meyers: I can certainly h=
ave
him do that, cause I know we have to continue the
Hearing cause we don’t have Chuck’s report yet.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr.
Zawadzki: Any other quest=
ions
from the Commission?
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr.
Rafey: And the Public Hea=
ring
fee was not paid. I don’=
;t
know if Mr. Francisco forgot, it’s $350.00=
fee.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Ms.
Francisco: (Inaudible).
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr.
Meyers: I’m sorry, I apologize for that (inaudible).
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr.
Rafey: I already sent the=
Legal
Notice and I scheduled the Public Hearing.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Duplissie: There are 3 houses on the lot.=
Could you flip back to the 3 propo=
sed
houses? The house on this sid=
e,
that one there, how far is that house away from the 50 foot buffer line?
Mr. Meyers: Well we show the propo=
sed
deck which is probably . . . . .
Mr. Duplissie: That’s new, corr=
ect,
that’s new on the plan cause it used to be=
right
on the buffer line?
Mr. Meyers: It=
’s close yea, it’s=
about
3 (inaudible).
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Duplissie: And now you have?
&=
nbsp; Mr. Meyers: We have about 16 feet to thee =
houses
(inaudible).
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Duplissie: And from the house to the 50 f=
oot
buffer line, there’s a drop in elevation? I can’t see it on the plan t=
hat I
have.
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #526 – P & A ENTERPRISES, LLC
JUNE 9, 2005
PAGE 6
&=
nbsp; Mr. Meyers: There is a drop in elevation (inaud=
ible)
bottom elevation is (inaudible) 518.
The basement elevation is proposed as a walkout on this side of the
property is proposed right at existing grade so the front of the house woul=
d be
8 feet higher on the other end cause there is a significant difference in
elevation here between this side and this side of the house, and that’=
;s
the reason for making this a walkout basement which would require no
disturbance adjacent to the wetland area and making the front area here and
putting the garage on this side, so we keep away from disturbing any of the=
wetland
area here or any of the buffer.
&nbs=
p; &=
nbsp; Mr.
Zawadzki: Yea, well this shows t=
hat
deck about a foot or so away from the 50 foot buffer but . . . . .
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Meyers: Right, we show th=
at
here, but it doesn’t necessarily have to go there.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Zawadzki: That doesn̵=
7;t
impact on the buffer.
&nbs=
p; &=
nbsp; Mr.
Meyers: No, the deck would be =
up at
the second (inaudible) might have some piers here but that would be it.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Duplissie: But this plan that we have now=
is
different from the one that was submitted before because the house used to =
be
right on the 50 foot buffer. =
You
moved it away from the buffer.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Meyers: Yes, we moved it =
away
from the buffer.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Duplissie: But we're cont=
inuing
this?
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Zawadzki: Yea, cause we have the Public Hearing here, so we have to a=
sk for
public comment. Any
other comments or questions from the Commission? At this point I invite the public =
to
comment on this Application #526 if they so choose. Just come forward and use the micr=
ophone
and state your name and address.
&nbs=
p; &=
nbsp; Larry
Markey,
Mr. Markey: My property borders th=
is.
Mr. Zawadzki: Mr. Meyers, can you give him a han=
d,
he’s trying to find his property on the drawing.
Mr. Meyers:=
It’s right here.
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #526 – P & A ENTERPRISES, LLC
JUNE 9, 2005
PAGE 7
Mr. Markey:=
I was just questioning the mark th=
at he
had the corner of where it bordered Ripley and the Markey property. They used to have a line here with=
the
fence, and then up here I think is where I saw the mark, where the boundary line, the fence.
Mr. Meyers:=
We may have found some points out =
there
and we flagged them up (inaudible).
Mr. Markey:=
There was a marker here for the di=
vision
of these two houses, but there was never a marker here. The (inaudible) corner is the prop=
erty cause I measured it and I got 118 feet. Okay no problem with that. The other question is, and I menti=
oned
it to you when we did the walk through, we have a 20 foot pass way that goes
down between LeClaire’s property and what used to be Libitski
property. It shows that on our
deed. (In=
audible). One of them houses borders 20 feet=
from
the line which would be, our pass way is 20 feet, so that house would be on=
the
20 foot line so I don’t know if that makes sense that you’re go=
ing
to have somebody driving by the window of the house and the house is right
there. I just wanted to bring=
that
point up because it doesn’t seem like it should be that close to the =
pass
way. The pass way seems like =
nobody
wants to talk about it, but the Town has records of it and . . . . .
Mr. Zawadzki: When you say pass way, what is
that? Is it an easement?
Mr. Markey:=
No, it’s a right of way that=
we
have getting, it comes down onto
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; John Luckis,
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Luckis: I believe this pr=
oposed
building plot is on the other side of my property. The only thing I could, I’m =
not
really familiar with the map, I haven’t seen the map, I
don’t know where the proposed houses are. I was wondering if I could look at =
it for
a minute before I comment?
&nbs=
p; &=
nbsp; Mr.
Zawadzki: Yea, sure, just use the
microphone when you have a comment.
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #526 – P & A ENTERPRISES, LLC
JUNE 9, 2005
PAGE 8
Mr. Luckis: The comment I have to =
make
is I wish that the wetlands be preserved as much as possible. I’m really not familiar with=
, I
know there’s a lot of wetlands back there cause
my property abuts the wetlands also.
I know a lot of people have tried to fill it in the past, and I̵=
7;ve
received letters that that is wetlands and it's not opposed to be touched, =
and
I just want you to be diligent in your job to make sure that whatever is th=
ere
for wetlands and for the birds and the animals stays that way. Thank you.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Robert LeFay,
Mr. LeFay: I would just like to s=
tate
for the record publicly that I’m opposed to Application #526 for reas=
ons
of the impact on the wetlands, and along with 43 Town residents here is a
petition that was circulated.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr.
Zawadzki: Yea, you can en=
ter
that, submit that, and we’ll make it part of the record.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr.
Zawadzki, Chairman, read aloud the petition:
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; “Petition
to Oppose Construction and Disturbance of Wetlands
We, the undersigned, o=
ppose
the proposal of Application #526 involving the construction of the proposed
Stanley Heights, 3 lot residential subdivision and construction of
approximately 200 feet of new roadways located on the southwesterly corner =
of
Winthrop Street Extension and Ripley Street in Oakville, CT in and R-12.5 R=
esidential
Zoning District. This involve=
s opposition
of the proposed construction of:
It follows with signat=
ures
from 43 residents.
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #526 – P & A ENTERPRISES, LLC
JUNE 9, 2005
PAGE 9
&=
nbsp; =
; Bri=
an
LeClaire,
Mr. LeClaire: =
Or Lot # 17 on
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Undercuffler: Could you s=
how
where you were standing?
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
LeClaire: Right down in t=
his
area right here. This is the
proposed house here, there’s a steep drop-off and down to where the
stream was, and the flag was virtually no more than maybe 3 or 4 feet from =
the
actual stream, so (inaudible) I’ve seen it when we get heavy rains
(inaudible) possibly consider this so close to the stream, you’ve got
your buffer zone up to here (inaudible).
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Rafey: The applicant hire=
d a
professional soil scientist. =
He
went to the site and he flagged all the wetland locations, and then the
surveyors went there and took that information and put it on these maps.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Duplissie: It doesn't mat=
ter
when he went, if the soil doesn’t change . . . . whethe=
r
it’s dry, the soil stays the same.&n=
bsp;
They go by the soil, not the content of the water or where the water
is. The soil sample decides w=
hether
it’s wetlands or not.
&nbs=
p; &=
nbsp; Mr.
Rafey: There are some areas t=
hat
you see the soil wet, it’s wet soil, but it
cannot be wetlands soil, it’s by soil type. In some areas of wetlands the soil=
type
is wetlands but if you go on the surface there is no standing water. It doesn’t mean that if an a=
rea is
wet, it is a wetlands, or because an area is dry=
it is
not a wetlands. They go by so=
il
type. If it is a poorly drain=
ed
soil or very poorly drained soil, or alluvial soil, or flat plain area,
they’re all defined wetlands and this is done by a professional soil
scientist. If you
want to hire your own soil scientist to go there and recheck it . . . . .
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. LeClaire: (Inaudible) perc test (inaudib=
le).
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #526 – P & A ENTERPRISES, LLC
JUNE 9, 2005
PAGE 10
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Rafey: They do take soil samples from=
the
round yes.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Zawadzki: It’s like=
a
little boring.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Rafey: They have an auger and take sa=
mples
from the ground.
Mr. Zawadzki: =
And of course we have =
the 50
foot setback or what we call the buffer area, in addition to that thereR=
17;s
that other line and of course we do everything we possibly can to avoid any
infringement into that area also which is just exactly what it sounds like,
it’s a buffer, so where you were standing was virtually right on the
wetland but then the 50 foot buffer is also protected so we try to keep eve=
rything
50 feet away from where you were standing, in terms of activity.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
LeClaire: Is the professi=
onal
soil scientist hired by the Town?
Mr. Rafey: By the applicant, and =
I have
a report from him, if you want I’ll give you a copy of the report tha=
t he
submitted to us.
Mr. Duplissie: They’re licensed=
, they
don’t just go out there because he hired them, then he’s going =
to
put the flags where the guy tells him to.&=
nbsp;
He puts them where he finds it.&nbs=
p;
He’ll auger here, auger here, auger here, and when he finally =
hits
the soil that’s wetlands that’s where he puts the flag. He doesn’t put if over here =
because
he wants it over there, he puts it where it has to go. He’s licensed.. If you do it wrong you lose your
license. That’s how he =
makes
his living. He doesn’t =
do it
better for him than he would for you.
If you hired him he would find the same spot the next time.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
LeClaire: So basically he=
could
auger in an area that is standing water if he finds the right soil, it̵=
7;s
not wetlands?
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Rafey: If it is not a wetlands soil, it is=
not
wetlands, even if there is standing water on the ground.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. LeClaire: I understand that, but when yo=
u have
a stream that continually runs I (inaudible) connection (inaudible).
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Rafey: Do you think that =
the
stream is not within that orange area, within that wetland area?
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #526 – P & A ENTERPRISES, LLC
JUNE 9, 2005
PAGE 11
Mr. LeClaire: =
That stream virtually =
runs
right down to there and the flag (inaudible) hanging right in so I think (T=
ape
#2, Side B ended – may have missed some).
Ms. Barton: And he thinks the wet=
land
is further up the slope is what he’s saying. I’m just trying to explain w=
hat
he’s saying.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. LeClaire: (Inaudible) very bottom where =
the
stream is very flat, and then it goes up rather rapidly and to me when
I’m standing there in sneakers and I’m sinking up to my ankles =
. .
. .
&nbs=
p; Mr.
Duplissie: He puts the flag, he
doesn’t put a stake in the ground, he doesn’t actually stake th=
e ground,
so he could have put that flag on the branch over there, and it could have
moved like 3 feet, and in that 3 feet on an uphill slope, and that’s a
steep grade over there, it’s a very steep grade, so 3 feet over there=
, we
don’t hold them to an exact fine point on a (inaudible).
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. LeClaire: At the bottom though it’=
s not
very steep, where the stream is it’s relatively flat over a larger ar=
ea
and then it goes up rather quickly.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Meyers: It’s steep =
all
the way to here and then these contours (inaudible). If you look at the contours it app=
ears
at, right at the toe of the slope is where the wetland flags were and we
physically located each one of these flags by field survey. I mean we have to show every one, =
and
that’s why they’re all labeled on the drawings, but this is rig=
ht
at the very toe of the slope. This
slope here is probably 15%, 18% right through there, all the way up the hil=
l,
so it makes some sense that the wetlands are at the bottom of the slope, and
then the stream is probably only a couple of feet off the bottom of the slo=
pe,
if that’s where it is in this area.&=
nbsp;
I didn’t walk down there, we were standing right here on the
buffer line, but you could see that the wetland area was right at the toe of
the slope just from where the flags were placed.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr.
LeClaire: That’s my=
only
concern, about where the wetland starts and where it ends and based on that
where the 50 foot buffer starts and ends in relation to the proposed proper=
ties,
and I also had the same concern about the other house being basically right=
on
the 20 foot right of way, that also borders my property. I’m right over here, and tha=
t 20 foot
right of way goes all the way around (inaudible) over here and all the way =
and
I’m also bordered on the back side which connects to the Markey prope=
rty
on the back side, so having that house right there doesn’t seem to ma=
ke
much sense.
&=
nbsp; &=
nbsp; Mr.
Undercuffler: Is that a
driveway?
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #526 – P & A ENTERPRISES, LLC
JUNE 9, 2005
PAGE 12
&=
nbsp; &=
nbsp; Ms.
Barton: (Inaudible) so th=
ey
can’t drive in, they walk in (inaudible).
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr.
LeClaire: Right. We don’t know how long that =
right
of way has been there.
&=
nbsp; &=
nbsp; Ms.
Barton: 30’s or
40’s.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr.
Duplissie: Is it a right =
of
way?
&=
nbsp; &=
nbsp; Mr.
LeClaire: It’s a co=
mmon
pass way on my deed.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Ms.
Baton: (Inaudible). I did look at it when this came in
initially for a variance and all these (inaudible) have the right to pass a=
nd
repass over it, it can’t be obstructed, but I think they’re cor=
rect
in saying it should be shifted because that person who, if this gets approv=
ed,
you don’t want that house that close.
&=
nbsp; &=
nbsp; Unknown
Voice: The person buying =
that
house won’t even know it (inaudible).
&=
nbsp; &=
nbsp; Ms.
Barton: Correct, and the =
other
thing is you don't want to be running into the house with a car, so they can
shift it over. Mr. Meyers sai=
d he
would address that.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr.
Rafey: Actually for this =
Commission
that is not an issue to discuss, it’s not a wetlands issue. If that’s a concern for the
neighbors that can be shifted, the house can be moved a little bit to the o=
ther
side.
&=
nbsp; &=
nbsp; Unknown
Voice: I didn’t kno=
w if
they had enough room to move it without getting to close to the other
(inaudible).
&=
nbsp; &=
nbsp; Mr.
Rafey: Mr. Meyers will lo=
ok at
the map and see how he can change that a little bit.
&=
nbsp; &=
nbsp; Mr.
LeClaire: That’s it=
for
me anyway.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Rosemary Agate,
&=
nbsp; =
; Ms.
Agate: You might say that=
I am
on the downstream of . . . .
&=
nbsp; =
; Ms.
Barton: You’re over=
here.
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #526 – P & A ENTERPRISES, LLC
JUNE 9, 2005
PAGE 13
&=
nbsp; =
; Ms.
Agate: So I am downstream=
of
and this is the 50 foot buffer from where the wetland area is. From what I had seen on the site w=
alk,
that proposed house #3, the edge of that house like he said is on the edge =
of a
cliff, so from what I see is when you look out of maybe your back door of t=
his home,
you are looking down at, I don’t know maybe a 20 or 30 foot drop, you=
guys
were there, you knew about that drop so I cannot see putting a house over h=
ere
right on the edge of a buffered wetland and there not being any disturbance=
at
all when they construct the home. I
mean we all know that bulldozers go in and excavate and footings are put
in. Now seeing that I’m
downstream of this, I am in compliance with all wetland laws. Half of my property is wetlands.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Rafey: We can ask Mr. Mey=
ers to
ask the soil scientist to evaluate the wetlands and write a statement and b=
ring
it to us about what the impact of this development has on the wetlands.
&=
nbsp; =
; Ms.
Agate: Just logically spe=
aking,
if you had seen the depth, I mean when you look out the back door of this
proposed house, there was clearly, there was a stake in the ground that said
this is the corner of the house, from what I saw, there would be absolutely=
no
fill on the back of this house. I
mean I can’t see a bulldozer even coming in that area because it's wi=
thin
the 50 foot buffer. I mean
it’s a logical thing, so I just cannot see this happening. And of course I’m downstream=
from
here, so absolutely there will definitely be an impact on my land. I just wanted to make that point v=
ery
clear, and that’s why I’m here. When they say that water flows to =
the pond,
I’m not an engineer, but I do know water flows from a higher elevatio=
n to
a lower elevation and I am a lower elevation than these proposed homes, and=
I
see that I will have a very definite impact and this is why I’m here
tonight. I mean it’s a
logical game of physics. I=
217;m
not a scientist, but it’s a logical thing. And that’s why I’m her=
e.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mar=
ie
Ledkiss,
Ms. Ledkiss: <=
/b>My concern is that our
wetlands are going to be, I would like to ditto everything she said and make
sure that you listen cause I wanted to say every=
thing
that she said and our back yard is wetlands. We have some of the most beautiful
animals and we’ve seen an owl back there. There’s<=
/span>
all kinds of wonderful things back there.&=
nbsp;
This whole project stinks, and I didn’t have an opportunity to
sign the petition so you can add another name to the petition. I don’t want my wetlands
disturbed. Thank you.
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #526 – P & A ENTERPRISES, LLC
JUNE 9, 2005
PAGE 14
&=
nbsp; =
; Bar=
bara
LeFay,
Ms. LeFay: I live at the house ne=
xt to
&=
nbsp; =
; Pat=
ti
LeClaire,
&=
nbsp; =
; Ms.
LeClaire: The house is at=
Lot
#17, Stanley Avenue. I took t=
he
site walk as well. I could cl=
early
see how that third house is very close to the wetlands, very close to the b=
uffer
zone. I would find it incredi=
bly
difficult to believe that anybody washing their car in the driveway
wouldn’t be having all that water go down right into the stream, no
matter how good your driveway is sloped towards the other road, or any acti=
vity
that you try to have in your yard, normal things, when they want to put the=
ir
lawn fertilizer, when they want to grow their garden. All these things were told, in my =
kid's
Science class they say the runoff, we have to worry about things that run o=
ff
and I’m sure that’s what you’re concerned about. When they
want their very green lush lawn, when they put their fertilizer there
it’s going to go into that stream if we get a rainy season right after
that. I can see that the top =
two
houses don’t appear to impact the wetlands nearly the same way as that
third house does, but it’s going to impact in some way. Not only that, when you build hous=
es in
that area, that’s the last little piece of land left, I think, in that
whole Oakville section that has any hard woods in it, or any woods at all.<=
span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'> If you drive down
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #526 – P & A ENTERPRISES, LLC
JUNE 9, 2005
PAGE 15
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Meyers: First of all with=
respect
to pass way and moving that house, we do have some room, we can slide the h=
ouse
over and I would assume whomever buys it will put up a fence on the 20 foot=
pass
way to protect themselves or whatever. That’s issue #1, so that house=
can
be moved back a little bit more off to the side, away from the 20 foot pass=
way
that the Markey’s were concerned with.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; With
respect to Mr. Luckis, there’s no intent to disturb any of those wetl=
and
areas over here. There’=
s no,
we’re not touching any of the wetlands that exist here. And I think, Mr. LeClaire, the wet=
lands are
by soil type so what he does is he digs an auger hole and he looks for
oxidations in the soil and they have a color chart that they go by for soil
scientists. Mr. Lord, who is =
a soil
scientist that we use, was head of the Soil Conservation Service for
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; With
respect to Mrs. Agate and Mrs. LeFevre, the water flows downhill, the grade=
s go
this way. Our water doesnR=
17;t
flow towards your property. <=
span
class=3DGramE>Our water flows
towards this pond and then down towards Turkey Brook so we don’t, our
water doesn’t flow up here. You
can see the contours from us taking spot elevations here and the contours s=
how
that the water flows in this direction, through this property and into the
pond. And we are impacting no
wetlands. We are,
we do have a proposed detention pond.
The purpose of the detention pond is to provide a zero or negative
increase in runoff so that we don’t impact these wetland areas by
producing higher peak flows than what the predevelopment rate is, and Mr.
Berger has all the calculations for that to show that we are, we look at it=
for
all the different storms, a 2, 10, 25, 50, and 100 year storm so that we can
size the outlet structure to protect the wetland and not overburden it with
peak runoff flows that are going to create erosion, and that’s about
it. I think when the house was
staked was where it first removed a little bit, so I think the stakes were
actually about 10 feet closer to the buffer area than this location is caus=
e I
think we adjusted the locations, as John mentioned. That’s all I have. I think you have to continue this.=
I’ll have an environmental i=
mpact
statement from Mr. Lord prior to the next meeting so you’ll have a ch=
ance
to review it.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Zawadzki: Yea, hopefully,=
thank
you.
&=
nbsp; =
; Ros=
emary
Agate,
Ms. Agate: I have a question conc=
erning
the third house there. You ha=
d said
that the water is running this way?
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #526 – P & A ENTERPRISES, LLC
JUNE 9, 2005
PAGE 16
Mr. Meyers: In the wetland area the
water runs this way into the wetland area and the wetland area comes this w=
ay,
just like the sanitary sewer runs this way.
&=
nbsp; =
; Ms.
Agate: So what is the str=
eam
behind my yard?
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Meyers: That comes down a=
cross
here and down this way.
&=
nbsp; =
; Ms.
Agate: This is still a hi=
gher
elevation than . . . . .
Mr. Meyers: This is higher, but th=
e water
flows here. The water flows perpendicular to contours and these are the cont=
our
lines. See the (inaudible), t=
he
water flows in that direction (inaudible) low spot which is the stream that=
Mr.
LeClaire mentioned and it goes this way into the pond that exists on the
adjoining property and then it goes out of the pond and down towards Turkey
Brook.
&=
nbsp; =
; Ms.
Agate: I just, when you s=
aid
that it goes that way, I still see that it would have an impact cause I do =
see
a stream, there’s not only one stream behind there, there are a lot of
streams and a lot of contours so I just can’t believe that it would j=
ust
be running in this direction on this contour map. I oppose that.
&=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; I
have another question concerning the end of this home right here. I still want an answer on how we c=
ould
guarantee that we would not go into that 50 foot buffer of that wetland.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Meyers: First of all
that’s a walkout basement so all it would be is a 4 foot frost wall, =
so you're
not digging down 8 feet. This=
would
just be a walk out and we’re actually 20 feet off the buffer line with
that walkout. We moved this h=
ouse
slightly from where it was staked.
&=
nbsp; =
; Ms.
Agate: (Inaudible)?
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Meyers: Well we moved it =
about
10 feet over since we staked it.
&=
nbsp; =
; Ms.
Agate: I saw a stake in t=
he
land and it said corner of the house, not the lot, and when I saw that stak=
e,
it was on the edge of a cliff and I can’t understand that you could b=
uild
a house on the corner of a cliff and not have no=
back
yard at all literally. That&#=
8217;s
my question, and how you propose to build a house on the top of this cliff
without there being any disturbance within that buffer?
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Meyers: It’s probab=
ly
been done 1,000 times before.
I’ve seen a lot steeper grades on this on banks where houses a=
re
located adjacent to the top of them.
But we did move this house over somewhat after we initially staked i=
t.
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #526 – P & A ENTERPRISES, LLC
JUNE 9, 2005
PAGE 17
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Zawadzki: So you're sayin=
g, Terry, that it was moved 10 feet from the day of the s=
ite
walk?
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Meyers: From where the st=
akes
were on the site walk. Basica=
lly when
we go to do a plot plan for this house, assuming the subdivision is approve=
d,
we then have to submit that plot plan to Mr. Rafey, he has to go see the ho=
use
staked, then see the erosion controls installed before he will sign off on =
the
zoning permit, and basically for the walk out all you have here is a 4 foot
frost wall, you're digging 9 feet down to put footings in and then an 8 foot
wall. This would be a walk ou=
t,
that’s the way it’s set up.
&=
nbsp; =
; Ms.
Agate: So it wasn’t=
to be
implemented to . . . . .
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Rafey: Can you show the l=
imits
of disturbance on the map of what will be so we can enforce that?
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Meyers: The limit of
disturbance is right here, just outside the wall, and then right here,
that’s the limit of disturbance, so it’s outside of the 50 foot
buffer that you require.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Duplissie: So you’r=
e saying
that you’d have a silt fence basically right on the 50 foot buffer li=
ne
and no machinery would get past that 50 foot buffer line, and you'd have al=
l of
your excavation outside of the 50 foot buffer?
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Meyers: Yes, because what=
ever material
as we come up this hill we take out we’re going to use in the front y=
ard.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Duplissie: So no machine =
would
enter the 5 foot buffer? Your=
silt
fence would be outside of the 50 foot buffer?
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Meyers: Yes.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Rafey: And that will be t=
he
limit of disturbance, the silt fence?
Mr. Meyers: Right.
&=
nbsp; =
; Ms.
Agate: And what would be
implemented so that we don’t have erosion of that steep bank?
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Rafey: It’s vegetat=
ed
now.
&=
nbsp; =
; Ms.
Agate: No, it's not.
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #526 – P & A ENTERPRISES, LLC
JUNE 9, 2005
PAGE 18
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Meyers: There's forest li=
tter
there.
&=
nbsp; =
; Ms.
Agate: Is there vegetatio=
n on
the cliff?
&=
nbsp; =
; Unknown
Voice: (Inaudible).
&=
nbsp; =
; Ms.
Agate: I mean I’m j=
ust
wondering, will something be implemented to stop the erosion of that bank i=
nto
that wetland area, seeing that it’s so high, the cliff part?
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Meyers: That bank isnR=
17;t
eroding now.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Rafey: You can ask =
Mr.
Lord to see what he suggests for that.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Meyers: I can, but we're =
not
going to disturb it and it’s all forest li=
tter
and leaves and brush now all along that bank.
&=
nbsp; =
; Ms.
Agate: That’s all w=
ell
and good. I’m just goin=
g by
how, when I built my home, I had to hydro seed the bank and it was already
there with forest and trees. =
I had
to go through about 7 meetings just to have it approved, this was 20 years =
ago
that I had to go to all these wetland meetings, and I actually had the
committee in my back yard and I had to implement a lot of different things =
just
to hold up banks that were only maybe 8 feet tall. Now this bank here, I don’t =
know
the elevation, maybe you could tell me what it is, I know it's on the edge =
of a
cliff, and I don’t see anybody saying anything about how we're going =
to
hold back that bank for erosion. I’m
going by my past experience.
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Rafey: There is a natural=
ground
cover there. I prefer to have=
that
than having a hydro seed and have a lawn there and then they go with their
lawnmower down the slope all the time.&nbs=
p;
There is some vegetation there and some ground cover is naturally th=
ere,
I prefer to have that instead of hydro seeded grass.
Ms. Agate: Right, it just seems l=
ike
there would have to be something to hold up that bank, and it doesn’t
seem like there was enough vegetation (inaudible).
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Rafey: Is there any erosi=
on
now?
&=
nbsp; =
; Ms.
Agate: Yea, there’s
always erosion. When it rains=
it
erodes, an d I didn’t see a heavy, I mean you were there, you saw it,=
I
didn’t see a heavy growth of forest over there because there is kind =
of
light coming in, but I’m just going by my past experience, what I had=
to
do when I built my home.
CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY
PUBLIC HEARING
APPLICATION #526 – P & A ENTERPRISES, LLC
JUNE 9, 2005
PAGE 19
&=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Zawadzki: Well one of the
things that the applicant has to provide is an environmental impact wetland
study, and I opened this discussion with reiterating that request to Mr. Me=
yers
so that still has to be provided. This
Hearing will remain open until next month at least, so we can’t close=
it
until we get all the information we’ve asked for. &=
nbsp; =
; Ms.
Agate: I’m just bei=
ng honest
and telling you what my procedure was.&nbs=
p;
I mean I had the D.E.P. involved even. I mean I know it’s that seri=
ous,
so that’s why I wanted to see a plan in place for that, if you
don’t mind. &=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Rafey: Mr. Berger and I w=
ill go
and see that bank and see if we suggest anything for erosion and sediment
control. &=
nbsp; =
; Ms.
Agate: Thank you. &=
nbsp; =
; Bri=
an
LeClaire, Mr. LeClaire: =
Just to tie in with wh=
at she
was just talking about, any time you put houses in an area you have to prov=
ide
for drainage. I mean the roof=
is a
nice flat area, the rain comes down it comes down your gutters, so I can see
why she’s concerned about runoff and erosion because drains are going=
to
come down and you get a lot of water and it's so close to the embankment th=
at
yea, it could start causing erosion where right now it falls harmlessly over
the whole surface and soaks into the ground. Well it won’t soak into your=
roof
unless you’re having a bad day and then you’re calling the roof=
er
so you have to have something to cover for erosion on those embankments when
you have thousands of square feet of area which was once soil and natural
drainage and now it’s running down your gutters somewhere. That’s all I have to say. &=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Meyers: The roof drains a=
re
going into the detention pond, that's how we control the runoff on the
roofs. And that’s the p=
urpose
of the catch basins is (inaudible). &=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Zawadzki: Would you expla=
in how
they do that? &=
nbsp; =
; Mr.
Meyers: Well we run the r=
oof
drains from the corners of the house into the catch basins, and the catch
basins take the storm water down and into the detention pond, and then the
detention pond structure controls the release of the storm water at a slow =
rate
so that you don’t impact the wetlands and that's basically the same r=
ate
of runoff of what is going there currently so that you don’t have any=
increase
in runoff. CONSERVATION COMMISSION/INLAND WETLAND AGENCY PUBLIC HEARING APPLICATION #526 – P & A ENTERPRISES, LLC JUNE 9, 2005 PAGE 20 &=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; Mr. Zawadzki: Any other questions or comment=
s from
the Commission? I guess I nee=
d a Motion
at this time to Table Application #526 until our next meeting. &=
nbsp; &nbs=
p; MOTION: (Mr.
Duplissie, sec. Mr. Beauchamp) to Table the Public Hearing for App. #526 of=
P
& A Enterprises, LLC for construction of 3-lot residential subdivision =
Discussi=
on: =
; None MOTION P=
ASSED
UNANIMOUSLY &nbs=
p; Public
Hearing Recessed at 10:10 p.m. &nbs=
p; Mr.
Zawadzki, Chairman, called a 10 minute recess at 10:10 p.m. Respect=
fully
submitted, Ronald =
Jones,
Secretary Conserv=
ation
Commission/ &nbs=
p; _________________=
_________________ &nbs=
p; Lynn
M. LaForme, Minutes Secretary
Inland Wetland Agency